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Dr Who
May 25, 2004 0:02:27 GMT -5
Post by Iain on May 25, 2004 0:02:27 GMT -5
Wow Hushicho where do I begin... Sometime soon I will relate some very shocking tales from Tom Bakers time as the Doctor, he at one point was going to quit the show while Graham Williams was still producer, but they smoothed things over in a meeting with BBC higher ups.' The Tom Baker years are quite the era both in front and behind the camera, I guess that is what I find so facinating about that period. JNT in his early years wanted the storys very serious or non-slapstick. He had seen the Tom Baker era as too funny really and wanted to inject the show with more dramatic effect, of course this was probably a bad move with the writers and script editor he had, any of the earlier written dramatic storys from the 60's and 70's were written by competent writers, JNT wanted a bunch of 'yes' men who would provide scripts for him in a hurry and not complain about re-writes, thats probably why almost all 80's writers for JNTs Dr Who were new and inexperienced with writing for episodic television. Saward tried to get older writers in and suceeded in returning Robert Holmes to the show but Holmes only did a few storys before passing away just after season 23 was finished. Revelation of the Daleks is prbably a case of all the bits somehow working there, (it was the last story before the 18 month hiatus) he was still feeling his way with Earthshock, and Ressurection went through a couple of re-writes, (it was supposed to conclude season 20 but a BBC strike put paid to that)plus Terry Nation the 'creator' of the Daleks used to put ridiculous restrictions on what they could do with the Daleks. He was always worried the show was going to spoof the Daleks like Tom Baker did. I mean how could anyone spoof something that looked like this...? Back to Earthshock I havent watched that show in a fair bit but it still holds a special place to me for a cracking action story with some rather unfortunate casting (Beryl Reid?) and yes some bad continuity, yes you are right hushicho about the various problems there, actually one very funny one is the female trooper that when you next see the three remaing troops has now become a guy. And the bit where they are keeping Cybermen at bay by shooting them whever they walk near(shooting ducks anyone) One of them remarks to the other that the charge in their stolen Cyberguns are getting low. Well theres about a half dozen or so dead Cybermen in front of you take one of theres dummy!! Says I. I guess after last seeing the Cybermen portrayed as a pathetic bunch of tin men skulking about the universe in a old ship, in the 1975 Revenge of the Cybermen story I wanted to see them return as a force to be reckoned with and Earthshock (1981) seemed to suggest that, we had armies of Cybermen breaking out of containers on a freighter, by the way it must have taken awhile to load about 18,000 Cybermen into that ship, did they take a very long pit-stop somewhere? And where did that other Cyberman go off to when they boarded the Tardis? The Cyberleader did say search the vessel, and the Cyberman would have done it logically right? How do you search the Tardis anyway? More to come soon, I need to take a break, but this is fun debating Dr Who after so long hushicho, hopefully others join in. ;D
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hushicho
Fighter
~tsuki no hikari wa ai no message~
Posts: 86
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Dr Who
May 25, 2004 1:40:07 GMT -5
Post by hushicho on May 25, 2004 1:40:07 GMT -5
Iain, I'm quite enjoying this too. It's been a good long time since I've had the opportunity to talk with anyone who can even boast the faintest of trivial knowledge about Dr Who. I have heard some pretty interesting stories behind the scenes myself, and even though I tend to try and avoid those sorts of stories due to the fact that I try to continue thinking fondly of my favourite actors and actresses, sometimes the stories are just too interesting! Yeah, I think a lot of the reasons why the fifth Doctor's scripts were so lacking from time to time was because JN-T did indeed want writers who wouldn't mind him taking huge liberties with their stories, and not older and more experienced (and often more talented) writers who might object or not offer their work in the first place. I think it's amazing that Robert Holmes ever came back at all, and it is a shame that it was so late in his life that he was even able to do so. Perhaps if Nathan-Turner hadn't been quite so ambitious, in his own way, the fifth Doctor would've been a more overall fondly-remembered period in the series. As it was, it was extremely uneven. One week you'd have an incredibly good serial and the next you'd have one that made you want to avoid the series for the foreseeable future! And of course that speaks again for Saward's script-editing...being a script editor is about consistency and continuity, and there were so many instances where he'd make tiny little continuity connections and destroy huge great chunks otherwise ('Mawdryn Undead' -- need I say more?) I think you're right there...it's really the only Saward story I've ever seen where I thought everything worked very well and fit ideally to the circumstances. Even the humour...which should never have been struck from the series and indeed at times made the fifth Doctor seem quite bland or impersonal at times...really fit the characters well. The Doctor's genuine concern for Peri was evident at several junctures, and the fact that, at last, the sixth Doctor actually *put his arm around her to comfort her* was something that should've happened much earlier, so that we as the viewers weren't constantly encouraged to think that they despised each other! I also particularly love the chemistry that Nicola and Colin developed, and despite the attempts otherwise, they really did give you the impression of caring for one another like a niece would her favourite uncle and vice-versa. A very nice working relationship. I was especially glad that the Doctor and Mel were able to be that way from the outset. Unfortunately Peri's time with the Doctor was riddled with turmoil both on and off the screen, but she was an excellent companion too. I'm extremely fond of both Peri and Mel. Yes, I'd heard about the problems that 'Resurrection' went through when it was still 'Warhead'. I think a lot of people were disappointed when the Daleks didn't show in season 20, yet the Cybermen did! In the commentary for 'Resurrection', both Janet and Peter express that they actually were a bit afraid they'd never encounter the Daleks and would lose face at home! It was a very real fear...I think unfortunately the fifth Doctor set the precedent from there on out that the Daleks would appear only once versus the Doctor per regeneration; then again, none of the last three Doctors had particularly long seasons or times as Doctor either, so I suppose it's good that we got one with each! I'm very glad that the sixth Doctor's first season was so full of old style monsters and mostly quite good stories, since he only got two seasons. In any case, even though 'Resurrection' was probably the best we could've got at that point, it was still an absolutely awful farewell for Tegan and it was so very poorly conceived. Again, we're plagued with the continuity errors (it takes two-plus Dalek troopers to lift a canister of the Movellan virus, yet Tegan hefts one with casual ease!), Tegan's hastily written out at the end and the Doctor allows her to run out into a London three years after she left it, with none of her possessions with her!! Presumably (hopefully) he dropped by somewhere or other and set her up a nice flat and left her things there. That's what I tell myself to reassure myself that one of the best companions wasn't left in the lurch! I think the largest problem with the Daleks after 'Genesis of the Daleks' can be summed up in one word: 'Davros'. 'Revelation', I think, was the only one that featured him prominently and yet didn't make let him dominate the proceedings in a way that made the Daleks seem incidental. 'Remembrance' was pretty good (even though the writer's a total idiot, and an ass to boot), especially for the fact that the Daleks were centre-stage and Davros was a minor detail, made all the better by his masquerading as the Emperor Dalek. And yet another nice nod to TV Comic, I think it was. [contd]
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hushicho
Fighter
~tsuki no hikari wa ai no message~
Posts: 86
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Dr Who
May 25, 2004 1:40:29 GMT -5
Post by hushicho on May 25, 2004 1:40:29 GMT -5
[contd from previous post] Well, that's what its strong and weak points were: it was an action story, and...it was an action story. It was strong, as an action story, because there was lots of action. But it was weak in general because there was lots of action and not much else. I've never quite understood why everyone had a problem with Beryl Reid in the role here, but then again I hadn't seen the wonderful Carry On films before I saw 'Earthshock' for the first time. Nonetheless I still think she did an excellent job. I suppose seeing her without really knowing her in any other role, it's easier to appreciate her that way. I remember noticing that the first or second time I'd discovered I had this serial taped from public TV years ago, unlabeled on a tape of assorted other episodes. I had to rewind a few times and watch that over and over again, because I thought I surely couldn't have seen it right!! Yeah, there were a lot of situations in the story that were taken at face value. I mean, there were things that happened that didn't make logical sense, but which the characters insisted did. And apparently you were supposed to go with what they were saying. I think even at the official Dr Who site, the critique on this episode says that the writer shouldn't get so caught up in the action that he forgets the plot; it's all well and good to have things happen at a rapid clip, but if you forget to proofread and have it make sense... Yes, I thought they were quite formidable in all the second Doctor's adventures. In each and every one they were cold, merciless, calculating, and just plain evil and terrifying. But I honestly don't think they have been half as threatening since. 'Revenge of the Cybermen', to me, seemed to be more interested with the Vogons' own civil conflict more than the Cybermen. Perhaps it should've been called 'Vogon War and Incidentally Some Cybermen Were There'. I don't really think the Cybermen were all that formidable. As Terrance dicks comments were so hilarious in the commentary to 'The Five Doctors', I absolutely can never forget his utter contempt at Saward's fascination with the Cybermen. Honestly I never found the post-Troughton Cybermen to be anything but pale imitations of their predecessors. In 'The Wheel in Space', two Cybermen have enough power to hold an entire space station in a grip of fear. In 'The Invasion', the inhuman invaders utter scarcely a handful of sentences but it's arguably their most terrifying appearance. 'Tomb of the Cybermen' is a sublime masterpiece, 'The Moonbase' an eerie and claustrophobic piece. I just didn't see those qualities in 'Earthshock', with the Cybermen stupid enough to carry armaments not integrated in any way with their suits, which as we've pointed out could easily be picked up by anyone...and used lethally against them! It was visually impacting, if nothing else. I remember very vividly the zoom-up to the Doctor's face as he finally realised just whom he was up against! But yes, the thing about Earthshock was that it never made its premise believable; at least in 'The Wheel in Space' Zoe fixated on the problem that the rocket in which the Doctor and Jamie (and incidentally the Cybermen) arrived was eighty-seven million miles off course with only enough fuel for twenty, if I remember correctly! In that case it was played up for suspense and mystery. In Earthshock it seemed all the more ridiculous because nobody ever seemed to think about it. And wasn't there one Cyberman unaccounted for, that we can presume was probably just still clunking around inside the TARDIS? Or did Nyssa plug him with his own gun? Good grief, I need to shut up. I have to sleep. I hope you've enjoyed this as much as I have. It's always a pleasure to talk with you. Love! Hushicho
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Dr Who
May 25, 2004 3:44:59 GMT -5
Post by Iain on May 25, 2004 3:44:59 GMT -5
Well hushicho your knowledge of Dr Who rivals my own, its a pleasure to discuss this great show that many people today dont even know existed. JNT invisioned the fifth Doctor as a brave 'Tristram' from All Creatures Great and small (Peter Davisions other show at the time)and the fifth Doctor became that rather shy brave person, I feel that was the best contrast to Tom Bakers larger than life character, in Davisions first year the three companions (Nyssa, Tegan and Adric) carried the show as much as the fledgling Doctor. Photo (1) Fifth Doctor and companions, Left to right: Nyssa,Adric,Doctor No5 and Tegan.(Tardis in background) Photo (2)Doctor 5 with Tegan and Turlough.The writing of said storys went to a fair number of new untrained writers really. JNT made sweeping changes when he took over in Tom Bakers last year, he even disposed of Dudley Simpson who had been doing incidental music for Dr Who for years in favor of using more electronic music, in his view moving Dr Who into the 80's. So it was really a pure vision of JNT that Dr Who became during the Davision years, Saward was suggested by outgoing script editor Christopher H. Bidmead as a suitible replacement for script editor on the strength of sawards Earthshock script and The Visitation, (yet another reason for the great fire of London, it had been done once before in the Hartnell years) So once we had the JNT/Saward team up things started to really get fun. Ugh!! Dont remind me of that, it had been long established in the series that the Doctors time on Earth with UNIT and the Brigadier, all took place in the shows future hence the 1966 story The Web of Fear was set in the mid 1970's and the 1970 story Ambassidors of Death featured Britians space programe while the 1975 Baker story Pryamids of Mars Sarah Jane Smith tells the Doctor she is from the 1980's. So how come the Brigadier is retired from UNIT in 1977 when the Doctor visits that time period!!? I always had a soft spot for the Brigadier though ever since I heard his clipped voice in the Deamons (1972) home.ripway.com/2004-1/55857/brig.wavAnyway the mess that was 'Mawdryn Undead' was just another example of JNT and Saward throwing out the past because it got in the way of what they at least thought was a good story, that happened alot in 80's Dr Who, and all we fans could do was swallow it and hope it all makes sense somehow. Keeping this post firmly on the Davison era I think there was extreme problems with Warhead getting finished on time even without the BBC strike, it would have been sad to see it get dropped and we at least did get the story in season 21, now what a good season that was really! The problem with the Daleks is that they tend to get quite boring for dialogue, theres only so many times you can shreek "Exterminate!" with any conviction, so they needed Davros just to get the storyline moving along without too much yelling. Exterminate!!Davros, creator of the Daleks.And thats it from me tonight, I need some sleep now after that much composing, I'll pick up this facinating Davision conversation tommorrow.
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Dr Who
May 25, 2004 23:11:47 GMT -5
Post by Iain on May 25, 2004 23:11:47 GMT -5
I may spilt this discussion into two hushicho since we have enough raw material I think here to do multiple topics really, watch out for a new topic on the JNT years. I don't really think the Cybermen were all that formidable. As Terrance dicks comments were so hilarious in the commentary to 'The Five Doctors', I absolutely can never forget his utter contempt at Saward's fascination with the Cybermen. Honestly I never found the post-Troughton Cybermen to be anything but pale imitations of their predecessors. The facination with the Cybermen probably came about from the concern JNT had that they might not be able to use the Daleks anymore, Terry Nation had been making noises for years about taking his 'prized' possessions off to america where Dr Who fandom was really catching on and perhaps do his own feature with the Daleks, he was very attached to them and felt Tom Baker and the last production team had 'sent up' his creations in their last outing Destiny of the Daleks(1979) mocking their inability to climb stairs and Baker making a Dalek helpless by covering its eyestalk with his hat. So JNT was really left with no option but to bring about the 'other' famous monster to battle the Doctor the Cybermen had been popular throughout the 60's and despite them only appearing in one story in the 70's really they still scored second only to the Daleks in fan polls. And they could walk up stairs too. ;D So the Cybermen basically became the 80's Doctor Who villian, with their redone look and increased number (Revenge had only really seen three or four cybermen at the most) the re-captured the viewers imagination. The Cybermen appeared in Earthshock(1982), The Five Doctors(1983), Attack of the Cybermen(1984), and Silver Nemesis(1988) It was the 60's all over again the Cybermen were all over. Unfortunately the storys got worse each time with the tin giants in Silver Nemesis running from a gold arrow like it wasa Supermans Kryptonite. And for six episodes really, that was quite an achevement, the claustrophobic atmosphere of being trapped in an enclosed space station with your friends being slowly killed was a well executed story, its too bad that only episodes 3 and 6 exist now.Incidently yet another Cyberfleet to be destroyed there too, for computer brains the Cybermen dont learn from their mistakes. Well its probably better that they didnt talk there, I have heard their voices in that story and they come off sounding squeaky and non threatening really. Visually they are at their best though, threatening humanity and the newly formed UNIT. Agreed on both points, though I have only seen episodes 2 and 4 of the Moonbase its once again enclosed effect is very well realised, and I cant say enough about how excellent Tomb is. Well in all fairness the Invasion Cybermen did use guns too, not that the UNIT people thought of using them against the Cybermen. (Bazooka's tended to drop a Cyberman nicely) And I actually thought that the combining of human weapons to drop a Cybermen showed the difference in technlogy nicely and if you design a gun you make it as powerful as possible dont you so it seemed to make sense that their own Cyberguns would destroy them, after all we have guns that can kill us quite quickly. Ah yes but Zoe was played up to be a genius really, perhaps smarter than the Doctor even only she could rattle off those numbers with any conviction whereas in Earthshock we are just expected to accept that many thousands of Cybermen can be loaded into a ship without a single crewmember noticing a thing Nah I was just joking about the lost Cyberman there, Cyberleader enters TARDIS with one Cyberman, Cyberleader gets nailed by Doctor with the deadly 'gold' star in the respirator and about nine shots in the chest unit with his own cybergun, (ow, and with no effect from the Tardis inability to fire weapons inside the Tardis mentioned in Pyramid of Mars and Hand Of Fear) Then Cyberman returns early from his search of the Tardis only to get shot in the vitals by a cybergun toteing Nyssa. Once again hushicho I thank you for the discussion on Dr Who, hope to hear more soon, I am thinking up another topic for release soon.
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