hushicho
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Post by hushicho on May 27, 2004 3:29:16 GMT -5
I thought I'd go ahead and start the new topic as you said you were going to...I needed to post my responses to what you had said in your own, so here goes. Thanks so much! It's always a pleasure discussing with you too. At least discussing with you I don't feel self-conscious about my enthusiasm for the show! Some places are totally unpleasant about Who fans, as if they're supposed to be some sort of scourge and that we should all like this or that better...personally I say, if you like it and it gives you happiness, and it's not harming anyone else, then go for it! True, although his first year is almost universally regarded as his absolute worst (and with most of the serials involved I can see why...); especially notable were the everyday bickerings, the consistent 'costumes' (did they never wash their clothes?), and of course the horrific lack of effort on Saward's part to accommodate Nyssa. Even if she was just a last-minute write-in, it really is the part of the script editor to make sure that she is accommodated. Which doesn't mean 'oh, we'll have her faint for an entire story here' or 'let's just have her sit in the TARDIS for the last half of this, for no reason other than plot convenience'. To draw a parallel with a precedent, take Jamie for example. In his first serial, 'The Highlanders', he and Patrick Troughton, Anneke Wills, and Michael Craze got on very well, and because of this Pat used a little influence and had Jamie join the TARDIS crew. Even though a lot of his dialogue was just split and adapted from Ben's, it seemed very much like it was made for him anyway. And that was only done for a couple of serials before he was very ably given his own lines for the majority. This shows a large difference between script editing in those days and in the Saward days; even by the end of season 19 Nyssa was still getting written off in various ridiculous ways. Castrovalva - Much better seen as 'Logopolis, the latter half' rather than a serial in its own right...Nyssa actually manages to be somewhat useful here and isn't really written out although says little. Four to Doomsday - Nyssa gets her brain fried after proving herself useful with a pencil and the sonic screwdriver. Kinda - Nyssa faints for the duration of four episodes. The Visitation - ...was anyone really useful during this? Black Orchid - Nyssa meets her doppelganger and does a whole lot of nothing other than getting kidnapped. Earthshock - Nyssa remains in the TARDIS for two-plus episodes. Time-Flight - Nyssa is rendered unconscious pretty soon in and does a whole lot of nothing otherwise. And so on... It's such a marked and obvious difference too, in season 21. You see in 'Arc of Infinity' almost immediately that, at last, Nyssa has been given her own writing and not written out at every opportunity. Quite a shame that she only had four serials where she was given more credit than just being part of the scenery, I was quite fond of Nyssa. At least she had a better leaving episode than any of the other fifth Doctor companions!! As much as Peter Davison (and apparently the fifth Doctor) merely tolerated the presence of the brash Tegan, she was his most complementary companion and the longest-lasting too! I know some bemoaned the way she would answer the Doctor's often wishy-washy comments or nonsensical tangents with sharp retorts, but really she was just about the only one who made any sense when she did so. Considering what he'd put her through she had every right, too! I think the fifth Doctor needed a companion like that, because he himself vacillated so much; the decisive Tegan would often act impulsively but would put all her effort into something, unlike the Doctor whom, it seemed, could only act at the last minute, after all the alternatives had been thoroughly considered, and so it was always a flurry of activity and breathlessness. Tegan might have gone off in the wrong direction more than once, but at least she made decisions regularly! Turlough was good in potential but often never fully realised. It was nice that he had a consistent instinct for self-preservation though, although his departure in 'Planet of Fire' was absolutely nonsensical too. He had no valid reason to leave. Tegan's was hastily conceived in a story which did not showcase her strengths at all, which is one of the many things working against 'Resurrection of the Daleks'; most companions got to shine one last time before they were written out, and throughout their last stories they were able to show the various strengths that they either already had, or had developed during their travels with the Doctor. Tegan got to lie in a sick bed for nearly half the oh bugger story, then clomp around in pumps on a dock. As I said before though, I'm imagining the Doctor did some things behind the scenes to make sure she'd be all right. Even the fifth Doctor surely could've done that. With his attempts at continuity between the various episodes, Saward missed a lot from the first Doctor's similar adventures; even though there were connections between the serials to keep viewers interested, it wasn't like they were just standing around and happened to land after a few minutes. The crew had time to go change their clothes, freshen up, oftentimes even sleep before they reached their destination. And, once there, the Doctor, Ian, Barbara, and Susan often spent days if not longer where they were to go. I think it would've worked a lot better had the various TARDIS crew showed any sign of actually being settled in the TARDIS, even if just for the time being, and changed their outfits once in a while. It gave the season a feeling of being unnecessarily rushed, as if they'd depart from one place only to land, five minutes later, in a new one. And the constant and glaring references to the previous adventure came off as extremely forced in most cases, making it seem even more rushed since nobody would talk about these things for longer than a few hours at most, surely! I think that was a huge mistake too...Dudley Simpson's work was excellent. The new electronic music was appropriate for some of the stories, but not all of them...in fact, sometimes it really would grind on your nerves as it was extremely disruptive of mood in, for example, a historical serial or one that isn't set on a place of high technology and futuristic, streamlined architecture and whatnot! It might've been a wiser idea to retain Simpson and integrate the new musical style...but then, as we've discussed before, JN-T always made abrupt changes because he wanted what he wanted right then and there. Even though Bidmead was, more often than not, quite a good writer, what was he thinking?! 'Earthshock' is one of the most pathetic scripts out there plotwise, and 'The Visitation' is nothing but twaddle. Even compared to Bidmead's level worst, these two stories don't hold up. I'm so glad Saward didn't get his way and have the fifth Doctor always act like he did in 'Visitation'. He was absolutely awful from start to finish. You can really tell that, indeed, it was the first story to be filmed as the characterisation was so inconsistent. I think if it had been later, Davison most likely would've suggested a few changes; it really seemed particularly jarring right after his behaviour in 'Kinda'. But yes, as you said, there's another instance of Saward not doing his homework as he should. Anyone who purports to be such a fan of the earlier Doctors (and especially the first) should know about the earlier instance!! [contd]
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hushicho
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Post by hushicho on May 27, 2004 3:30:17 GMT -5
[contd from previous post] Yes, I think Sarah-Jane's statement was, verbatim, "I come from 1980." And she had no reason to lie in the circumstances, nor was she the kind of person who tended to make a habit of misleading people when it didn't suit her purpose. A huge effort was made with the UNIT stories to make them seem slightly in the future rather than contemporary. It's just another instance of Saward thingying it up and trying to cover his tracks. And why did the Brigadier retire? It was because he was secretly Ian in disguise! At least, that's what I tell myself when I watch that. Really and truly, they should never have had the Brigadier in 'Mawdryn Undead'. To boot, he's much older than he should've been at that time too, even with the makeup for the flashback. It really was a poor idea to do what they did and try to pull it off. It just didn't work. If you just imagine Ian in there (although you really shouldn't have to, if script editors would have done their jobs) it makes sense. Otherwise it's a load of cobblers. And I'm very sorry, but that one lad isn't at all fat, even though everyone in the serial seemed to carry on as if he were. Mm hmm. Funny that they could just change Ian to the Brigadier and consider it a job well-done, and yet they couldn't be bothered to write anything substantial in for Nyssa to do for a whole season. Furthermore from what I heard even her farewell was ruined by various BBC problems, incompetence and mean-spiritedness from Saward and JN-T included; I think she had to come back and film some scenes from 'Terminus' nearly a year later! I think Peter Davison, who exercised his option to leave after he'd finished filming season 20 (to leave at the end of the next season), said that after seeing the scripts for season 21 he regretted his decision a little bit. It's true, the season 21 scripts were probably more or less his best, and his Doctor did get to do a lot more in them. I tend to think 'Frontios' is one of the most essential stories of his Doctor's period, and even though it's very gimmicky ('oh, the TARDIS was destroyed! Whatever shall we do?') it nonetheless shows strength of the TARDIS crew, shows personality and character depth of all the cast, and gives a difficult moral situation in which there is no easy answer. 'Warriors of the Deep' was a solid enough story, if only someone had bothered to tell half the cast that it wasn't a dress rehearsal; 'The Awakening' was genuinely very good except for the blatant Saward character who should never have got past the script stage; 'Resurrection of the Daleks' was another Saward disaster that attempted to have too many things going on...weren't the Daleks enough of a threat just rescuing Davros? Did they have to be planning to invade Gallifrey?; 'Planet of Fire' tackled complex philosophical and religious issues and, more interestingly, introduced Peri but still managed to be rather dull; 'The Caves of Androzani' was one of the fifth Doctor's outright best! Well, and this is something that I've learned from doing manga and such, but there is so much to be done without dialogue. The Daleks, in the earlier years, were the unspoken threat, and showing the reaction of people to the Daleks made them seem more terrifying. It wasn't that the Daleks were really all that horrific...but they could kill anyone with just a blast! The threat of the Daleks was not in showing them more, but showing them just enough to be scary, and concentrating on the effects of what they'd done. Davros was very difficult to pull off without cheapening the Daleks, and in almost every instance of his appearance, he did cheapen them and made them seem much less threatening by his existence. He was terrifying, true, but ultimately he was a one-trick horse that would've been suited to appear in 'Genesis' and maybe 'Destiny', but after that it just got ridiculous. I will say he actually contributed to 'Revelation' and I was quite glad that he was understated in 'Remembrance', but really that should've been how he was past 'Genesis'. I think he always should have been far, far in the background. It made him seem much more threatening than when he was just right there in the fore the whole time. The sheer inhumanity of the Daleks was always terrifying, and having Davros around gave them a human element, a last vestige of their discarded humanity, that I found rather superfluous and detrimental. I had heard about that, but I think we all knew that it wasn't going to happen really. 'Destiny' brought up a lot of things about the Daleks that were problems, which actually were not in fact addressed before then, for the most part. The fourth Doctor's actions in that story, though, were hardly out of character; the Daleks rely on a single optical stalk, and they had theretofore given little indication that they could handle rough terrain or stairs. Although I do seem to remember something pre-'Remembrance' that had a Dalek tackling a rough terrain...I forget where though... But anyway, I think he really had little foundation to be so 'outraged' at it. And his obsession with Davros...which I have heard was the reason Davros was included in all the stories post-'Genesis'...only made it easier to cheapen the Daleks. They walk up stairs and down stairs too! And they can even climb ladders in and out of sewers! Of course, the Cybermen were built up to the hilt in the time of the second Doctor...as I said, they were utterly terrifying during his time. Most of his monsters were quite scary, but the second Doctor's protective and very avuncular presence gave us a lot of comfort during those days. I remember 'Fury From the Deep' being possibly the most outright terrifying story ever made, but it was all right since the Doctor was there to protect us. You could see in every one of his stories that he genuinely cared for all his companions. But I digress...I think it was good that the Cybermen were brought back, but it wasn't so good the way they were treated. They were more like tinfoil-clad hobby horses post-'Earthshock' really, although to Saward's credit I will say that 'Earthshock' did retain their toughness. Many people whine about the Doctor defeating the Cyberleader by grinding Adric's star into the Cyberleader's chest unit, but that only suceeded in confusing him. I tend to believe it was the volley of repeated shots from the Cyberleader's own weapon that finished him! I wasn't wild about the new Cybermen design though, my favourite is still the one from 'The Wheel in Space'. I tend to see the 80s Cybermen as looking more like they're getting an enema or something similar. They just weren't inhuman enough, and they weren't really scary anymore. [contd]
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hushicho
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Post by hushicho on May 27, 2004 3:30:39 GMT -5
[contd from previous post] I don't know about that, here...I think the more the numbers, the less impressive the monsters, in the Cybermen's case at least. When you have more of them to deal with, of course they're going to be powerful. It's when you only have a couple and they nonetheless manage to get the upper hand ('Moonbase', 'Wheel in Space') that they're terrifying, and then you have an odd instance where there are vast numbers ('Invasion') and that's absolutely chilling. But if there are vast numbers every time, they kind of lose their impact. I'd imagine ten thousand Soldeeds could probably take over a planet with little real effort too, but it doesn't really make him scary... 'Revenge' failed, I think, to be particularly frightening due to the fact that the Cybermen in it took a back seat to the Vogon civil war, which wasn't all that interesting itself. The fact that the Cybermen took over Nerva Beacon using their double agent was formidable, and I liked their new head-weapons too. However, the clunking around with the bombs and the civil war, all that mess was very dull and lackluster. Perhaps that's why Saward wanted something that had a lot of action and was light on plot for 'Earthshock', but it was just the other side of the same coin, giving us a lot of things going on, but ultimately it was a bunch of sound and fury with no real foundation to it. Yes, the Cybermen in 'Attack' were apparently tinfoil-covered hobby horses. By 'Silver Nemesis', they were being destroyed by slingshot-fired coins. The point of gold was supposed to be just disorientation, clogging their 'breathing' apparatus. Even in 'Revenge', where it was introduced, the Doctor never indicated that gold was fatal. In fact, even when they used it in that story, it barely phased the Cyberman at all! Very true on all counts. What was particularly terrifying was the fact that they weren't only sealed off in a space station, but in a single room for most of the actual attack! And then the rest of the time they had to crawl through air ducts or risk encountering the Cybermen...which almost invariably meant certain doom. Honestly I think 'Wheel' could've been a couple episodes less...four might've actually done the trick, but I think five would've been ideal as there was far too much poking about in the first episode for my liking. But you're right, it was quite an excellent serial with a lot of great story to it. And the music was absolutely terrifying. I wish we'd seen more of that kind of moody music. Yes, they were very shadowy and powerful in this, but personally I thought their voices were really very creepy. I suppose all the more since they didn't speak much. It was a very inhuman sound, something that made them all the more eerie in 'Invasion'. 'Tomb' is really very good, more of a dramatic piece than anything else really, showcasing the inner motivations and feelings of the Doctor and his friends, as well as the archaeologist crew, and contrasting them very sharply with the cold callousness of the Cybermen. True, but then as you said a bazooka dropped a Cyberman nicely. I'd imagine if they hadn't had the heavy weaponry they'd have used one of the Cybermen's guns, or tried to anyway. True, but then again in 'Earthshock' the Cybermen's weapons tended not to dispatch them entirely at once. I really do think that the Cybermen, being creatures of logic and reasoning, would most likely make weapons that would not harm them if turned against them. After all, there is no civil unrest among the Cybermen that we have ever heard about. Why would they use weapons that could be used against themselves when dealing with other beings that are nowhere near as hardy as they are? I just think it would be more reasonable if their weapons were more task-appropriate. Yeah, that's the big problem with it; Zoe was a genius, but that was small potatoes to her. But to anyone with half a brain, surely someone would've noticed these things that we're encouraged nobody did, simply because the plot forgot to bring it up. Incidentally, Adric was a genius too and yet he never commented on the whole 'dozens of Cybermen in the hold' issue...you'd think being quite good at maths it would've occurred to him! The Doctor's not supposed to be quite that clueless either. Yes, 'temporal grace'...at least someone had the presence of mind to have Nyssa mention this in 'Arc of Infinity'. But it really shouldn't have ever been defied; it made no sense for it not to be present in 'Earthshock', as it so obviously wasn't there...at least in 'Attack of the Cybermen' the Doctor had been doing repairs and so it might've been disabled or messed up a bit at that time. Nyssa's very good with guns though, in fact uncommonly so even in her first appearance. For someone so detesting of violence and conflict, she certainly never hesitates to mow down the opposition, on several occasions! But yes, 'Earthshock' and other Saward crimes...like that awful ending. Yeah, so the Doctor couldn't go to the freighter and nab Adric? Rubbish! The Blinovich Limitation Effect only refers to being right there at the time, else the Doctor himself would be affected by it much, much more often. This has, time and again, been clarified; anyway, this is another example of where, after the end of a story, you have to sort of think that the Doctor went along and made everything okay because the story itself was so lacking in that respect. I eagerly await your responses. Love! Hushicho
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Post by Iain on May 28, 2004 5:44:47 GMT -5
Thanks so much! It's always a pleasure discussing with you too. At least discussing with you I don't feel self-conscious about my enthusiasm for the show! Some places are totally unpleasant about Who fans, as if they're supposed to be some sort of scourge and that we should all like this or that better...personally I say, if you like it and it gives you happiness, and it's not harming anyone else, then go for it! Thanks for taking the initiative and starting this topic yourself, time has been rather short for me this week due to some very long overtime hours at work and I appreciate the hard work you have put into this forum, if I had a member of the month award for Gallifrey you would get it for sure for helping revitalize what was always a favorite topic I liked here but it had little or no attention really for months. And I like to think that anybody can speak their mind here whatever their tastes as long as they keep it civil really, I enjoy these discussions about the shows era and hopefully our words encourage others to discuss the show too, if anything our posts here have renewed my interest in the show and I intend to dig out some old tapes this weekend and do some revisting of these classic storys. Anyway back on topic. ;D The costume/uniform look of the JNT years was I think his way of getting us to identify with the show and recognise his characters better, "look theres Tegan shes wearing a air hostess outfit, thats because she was on her way to become one you know!"(yes yes John very well done ) "and theres Nyssa she has a whole wardrobe of those red outfits and thers Adric he's still the whiney kid that joined back in season 18" I guess since the Doctor never changed his outfit why should his companions, JNT seemed to forget that Tom Baker and Jon Pertwee's Doctors changed their outfits frequently, and although they all had a similar look, (Pertwee's frilly shirts and velvet, or Bakers long scarfs and hats) they were distinctly different. And the companions changed many times look at Sarah Jane Smith, my goodness I think she changed outfits every story, (sometimes even several times mid story) but she was still Sarah, changing her outfit didnt make her harder to tell if she was the same person really. Well Saward inherited the terrible trio fom Christopher H. Bidmead really, but blame JNT it was his desire to populate the Tardis with as many familar faces from the previous years as possible, he tried to get Elizabeth Sladen back to reprise Sarah Jane Smith, and also Louise Jamieson to redo 'Leela' and ease the regeneration from Baker to Davision easier, neither actess was interested in returning to a weekly serial, so he quickly re-wrote Logopolis to include Nyssa and cast Janet Felding as 'Tegan.' (his one bit of inspired casting probably to hook the Australian fans of Dr Who) I also think that Kinda was a very early shot story (Davisons first filmed) and the writer simply hadnt been informed about another companion added, still Nyssa could have done something better than 'fainted' how utterly weak and pathetic was that!? Frazer Hines (Jamie) was a very good actor though, and I think his character had potentual when it first appeared, a scotsman from the 1700's travelling in a time machine? How can you go wrong its a great idea with lots of story ideas in it, added of course by the arrival of Debbie Watling as 'Victoria' (from the Victorian era even) mind you by then, Jamie was a bit more advanced and some Troughton storys actually showed Jamie piloting the Tardis!! (must not have had Isomorphic controls back then Doc. ) Ha ha agreed on all those points hushicho suffice to say that Nyssa was an unexpected extra to season 19 that was a 'fifth' wheel really in the storys that she even got anything to do in. Nyssa did get better writing in Arc of Infinity and she got the lions share of dialouge at least untill Tegan returned and then Turlough arrived to chew up the scenary in his misjudged spy role. And while Terminus was a quite well written story, was the de-frocking of Nyssa really needed? It always seemed that female compainions left the show with less clothes than they entered with, one wondered how Peri was going to fair when she left, considering how she was dressed when she entered the show in Planet of Fire more to come...
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Post by Iain on May 28, 2004 6:58:35 GMT -5
As much as Peter Davison (and apparently the fifth Doctor) merely tolerated the presence of the brash Tegan, she was his most complementary companion and the longest-lasting too! I know some bemoaned the way she would answer the Doctor's often wishy-washy comments or nonsensical tangents with sharp retorts, but really she was just about the only one who made any sense when she did so. Considering what he'd put her through she had every right, too! I think the fifth Doctor needed a companion like that, because he himself vacillated so much; the decisive Tegan would often act impulsively but would put all her effort into something, unlike the Doctor whom, it seemed, could only act at the last minute, after all the alternatives had been thoroughly considered, and so it was always a flurry of activity and breathlessness. Tegan might have gone off in the wrong direction more than once, but at least she made decisions regularly! Tegan got some very good chances to shine in Dr Who and the 'Mara' episodes were probably her best storys, I actually found her grateing on the Doctor got to sound almost like 'nagging' after awhile and wanted to see a softening between the two, it didnt come very often really, ironically I saw a Jim will fix it short where the sixth Doctor helped out a kid (Jim will fix it was a show where kids could get their dreams forfilled, one kid wanted to meet the doctor so JNT and Saward always the showmen agreed to do a short ten minute story for the show with Sontarans as the villains ) and because 'Peri' was unavailable they brought back Janet Felding as Tegan to play off the sixth Doctor, the match was perfect her brashness played off the brash Colin Baker perfectly and had this team done a season together I suspect the series would have benefited from the two. Once Turlough had run his misguided bad kid plot with the Black Guardian to its conclusion, writers tended to not know what to do with him, and we saw him suffering the same fate as Nyssa really, getting forgotten or misused. IO always thought he would have made a good 'masters companion' really, I didnt really care for him much after the Black Guardian bit. I heard that because she had been in the show so long (rivaling Davidson really for time served) the quick departure was they only solution really, despite the high quality of season 21 there seemed to be a tieing up of lose ends as the season wound down. Resurrection of the Daleks Tegan leaves. Planet of Fire Turlough leaves, Master killed? Peri joins. The Caves of Androzani Doctor 5 regenerates. I also thought that the Twin Dilemma was really rushing new Doctor Colin Baker into us, usually we had a season to contemplate the new Doctor but JNT wanted to get that all done at the end of season 21 so he could start fresh in the next year, no wonder Peter Davison is refered to as the 'forgotten' Doctor, in looking back at his era it seems like he wasnt really around that much, despite having a three year run and a 20th anniversary show. In fact the early Davison storys had a continued feel like the season was one long story, there was no real feeling of time passing just running from one tale to the next, the only time we see them relaxing in season 19 was Black Orchid really. Four to Doomsday runs into Kinda which goes straight to The Visitation and then Black Orchid The story to return Adric to E-space continues at the start of Earthshock and at the start of Time-Flight they are just desposing of the Cyberman bodies and still bemoaning the loss of Adric. So really the entire 19th season reads like a long single tale, with no breaks really. Quite a bit different from the Hatnell days where a single story was added just to show the characters 'relaxing' betwen storys Edge of Destruction at least we found out more about the charactors there in Black Orchid all we find out is that Adric over-eats really. Dudley Simpson had a wonderful 'Doctor theme' that he kept using at certain times throughout Tom Bakers run as the Doctor, a good composer will do little things like that, they may get missed by many people but some of us pick up on that stuff and it adds to the overall effect really. Much of the newer electronic music had no heart or feeling to it. Bidmead was probably a better writer (Frontios) than a script editor, Saward was thrown the job at Bidmeads recommendation and JNT's lack of effort to actually search for a suitable candidate, perhaps JNT felt Saward would be easily manipulated and easier to push new ideas on. JNT and Saward apparantly had a local fan of the show advise them on where they were slipping up in continuity, I guess he must have been away the day they came up with Mawdryn Undead.
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Post by Iain on May 29, 2004 2:25:27 GMT -5
iI'm back!! A few hours sleep and a weekend to enjoy in front of me and I suddenly feel refreshed for some strange reason, back to more responses to Mawdryn Undead, Earhshock and the JNT years. And why did the Brigadier retire? It was because he was secretly Ian in disguise! At least, that's what I tell myself when I watch that. Really and truly, they should never have had the Brigadier in 'Mawdryn Undead'. To boot, he's much older than he should've been at that time too, even with the makeup for the flashback. It really was a poor idea to do what they did and try to pull it off. It just didn't work. I have heard that JNT wanted to get William Russell back to reprise his role as teacher Ian Chesterton, but I think the actor retired from tv acting around the early 1980's (I last saw Russell in a Professionals episode in 1980) he changed his name too I think to Russell Enoch and focused on stage work mainly. It may have been as well that Nicolas Courtenay became suddenly available and he was 'placed' in the script, who really knows when JNT got an idea going really? Ah poor Sarah Sutton she always seemed so willing to help out the Doctor but when she was leaving the Doctor nearly slammed the door behind her, quite frankly there were no sad farewells in Davisons era really, the superb departure of Sarah Jane, the stunning drive into the sunset by Pertwee when Jo Grant left, those were never matched by JNT's efforts. Then again he was probably busy re-casting a newer fresher face anyway rather than worrying about adding to the shows great history. To JNT's credit he did try to convince Davision to stay another year, but he had always intended to only do three years like his good friend Patrick Troughton had said to him when he heard Davison had been cast as the Doctor, "Great Job!! Dont do it longer than three years though!" (although three years in troughtons day was nearly double what Peter Davison had to do in the 1980's) Frontios was an excellent story though, with some quite well done costume and special effects work. Ha ha and somebody should have told the costume designers that 'Sea Devils' were not samuari turtles in armour they could barley move in, and the Silurians used that light in their heads as a heat beam, not to flash when they talked!! (one wonders the carnage that happened while they chatted to each other, "Ow!! Stop heat beaming me off and on!!") And dont get me started on the Pantomine horse called the MyrkaLeft to right. 1. One Pantomine horse ready for action! 2. Silurians with flashy heat beams to tell which one is talking. 3. The fifth Doctor and Tegan look on with aghast at the special effects.Not just invading Gallifrey! Didnt you hear the Supreme Dalek near the end when he announced that he had 'doubles' of all the major rulers, "The collasp of human society was near" I think he said, that must have explained a lot about American and British policys back in 1984 really. ;D (Hey maybe George Bush is actually a Dalek clone attempting to collapse humanity from within? Both quite good storys and I agree that Planet of Fire got a bit too senic really but then blame the now yearly hoilday location shoot the Dr Who crew got to go on now. But Davros became the Daleks 'Fuehrer' and thus their speechmaker, nobody can deny that Michael Wisher's portrayal of Davros in Genesis of the Daleks was one of Dr Who's best moments, his voice was truely haunting and much like Hitler convincing to the right ears... ""....tiny pressure on my thumb, enough to break the glass would end EVERYTHING. Yes, I would do it, that power would set me up above the gods, AND THROUGH THE DALEKS I SHALL HAVE THAT POWER!" (true evil at work there...) No in fact they were as always very funny, too bad Terry Nation didnt think so, it took the Dr Who team nearly five years to get permission to show a Dalek on the show again. Revelation of the Daleks (1985) was supposed to have hovering Daleks in a =n early battle scene that got cut due to bad weather and time, Davros himself was seen hovering when he attacked Orcini later on. The Troughton years were well-named as Dr Who's monster years, I heard about a clip once they shot the week before the Web of Fear story where a worried second Doctor adressed the television audience and suggested that next weeks Dr Who might be very scary and perhaps the parents should watch as well. It was a truely magical era those years. Once again another mammoth post draws to an end, I hope to discuss more soon hushicho.
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hushicho
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Post by hushicho on May 30, 2004 0:45:34 GMT -5
And the horrible thing is that if he had actually considered that the viewers had brains at all, the show might've turned out a bit better for him. I mean, in the 'Resurrection' commentary, Janet mentioned that JNT made her put red in her hair for her first season so she wouldn't be confused with Matthew Waterhouse! She said 'it's amazing the man was left standing after that!' and I agree with her! That's just absolutely the most ridiculous thing I've ever heard; Turlough's red hair was for the same reasons, so he wouldn't be confused with Tegan...well, no danger there, because although Mark has quite nice legs, he rarely went around in anything but a full suit. Certainly not the flashy outfits Tegan sported!
Yeah, where did all those come from? And furthermore, how did she launder them? The TARDIS must have quite a nice laundry since crushed velvet's a b*tch to launder, speaking from experience. I mean, there's another idea...we could've seen a little day-to-day activity in the TARDIS, we could've seen them doing laundry or arranging their rooms a bit, but unfortunately we barely got to see any of this excepting of course when someone was bedridden from possession or about to be smashed into the hull of Terminus.
Yes, I think that sort of hits the nail right on the head there...the characters were given so little development through their travels with the Doctor during JNT and Saward's time. Perhaps it seemed so abrupt when they left because it seemed like they hadn't hardly done anything with the Doctor since embarking on their travels with him! Tegan did seem to evolve a bit, but then again she had been there since before his regeneration and also departed and rejoined. Nyssa got some slight development...but again it was too little and too late. Even Turlough really didn't change all that much...he came to the conclusion that he couldn't kill the Doctor and respected him, but he was still very much interested in self-preservation, in every situation that he and the Doctor found themselves in.
Yes, and even Davison changed his outfit ever-so-slightly during his time as the Doctor (chiefly his sweater's stripes changing), although it unfortunately wasn't quite the same as the others. But yes, anyone could see very plainly that Pertwee and Baker had changed their outfits many times along their stories.
As I had pointed out before, he was using really condescending views to attempt to convey things to the viewers, and at the same time his motives were really insulting to their intelligence. It was more of that 'comic book thinking' that just didn't work for Dr Who as a serial. If a character were written well and consistently, it wouldn't be hard at all to pick them out of a crowd in a story. However, I suppose that reflects the fundamental insecurities this era was riddled with; I suppose he must not have been confident enough in the characters' portrayals to think the audience wouldn't be able to tell them apart!
Yes, although I hate to call them 'terrible trio'...they were each and every one good characters in their own right. It's just unfortunate that they weren't handled as well as they could've been by the writers, producer, and especially the script editor. There were really great moments with them though...
I think a lot of it was spent trying to recapture the feeling of the first TARDIS crew, in which there were consistently four people for quite some time, and there was a great deal of interaction between them. Unfortunately many things limited them or totally defeated that same element they were trying to include, like our previously-mentioned 'rushed' feeling for the season, and other things like the bickering simply for the sake of bickering, including references to the immediately previous episode for no reason other than to remind people of what it was, and of course the scope of adventures.
We'd spoken earlier about the fact that everything seemed so very rushed, as if it had all happened in the course of a few days or a few minutes, and everything about the serials made it seem that way. It was all quite tightly-scripted together, and it gave the first season a sense of rushedness. Realistically I don't think anyone could tackle encounter after encounter like that with any sense at all of energy! As we had discussed, the first Doctor and his companions had stories that were scripted solely to give a sense of rest between the adventures...which, while they kept continuity, were nonetheless spaced out and given a sense of time passing between adventures. In 'The Edge of Destruction' it was shown that the crew were sleeping at one point. In 'The Chase', it was shown that they'd slept and lived in the TARDIS like a home, with Ian in his dressing-gown! That sort of thing wasn't indicated in the first season of the fifth Doctor, and it made it seem like everyone was just waiting around for the TARDIS to arrive at Heathrow.
It was more like they tried to create, halfway, the mood that existed by doing elements they remembered without actually bothering to check the stories themselves. They had access to the old scripts and certainly the Target book series, and even the tapes of existing episodes; they could've gone back and fetched out the details to try and do a more comprehensive job. They also neglected to consider the fact that many adventures of the first Doctor took place in large spans, sometimes over the entire surface of a planet (or several planets!) and often over the course of days, weeks, or even more. Oftentimes the fifth Doctor and his companions found themselves constrained to smaller territory, especially in the first season. They would often travel, and there would be changes of venue, but it never really had the same 'epic' quality many of the first Doctor's adventures had. Well enough, since several of the first Doctor's adventures' pacing wouldn't have really agreed with the more action-oriented sci-fi series of the time. I personally think the fourth Doctor achieved such popularity because they finally got to the point where they were able to combine adventurous pacing with solid story, which gave you both the feeling of quite an experience without the exhaustion of sitting through an epic, like some of the first Doctor's stories did. Even some of the second Doctor's were that way.
I think it's something that my own experience in writing might be useful on though; I write manga/comics in weekly installments, and so sometimes they'll be written to find a place to have a cliffhanger (inasmuch as they can) until the next week, but other times I write the whole chapter and just put it up in parts until the story finishes, letting no cliffhangers exist other than what naturally have occurred in the story itself. I think this is the difference between the older and the newer Dr Who episodes; in the older days, when the show began, I think that while they did have stories written out of course, they tended to put more emphasis on the individual episodes and what happened in them, and where they would go in them, and where they could tie it up at a cliffhanger until next week. It seemed to me like they'd pitch a story, be allotted a certain number of episodes, and write out the scripts accordingly. In the later years I think it was more like the story itself would be conceived, then they'd write it up and that would be that, and it would either be accepted or rejected. Accordingly, the later serials tended to have less side stories in them and more streamlining, making it at times difficult to include character-building or, really, anything that didn't directly contribute to the resolution of the major issue at hand. The sixth Doctor's stories were more balanced in this respect, but while the seventh Doctor's had some elements of balance in them, oftentimes his would be too heavy on the characters and not enough on the plot, making it seem at times like the presence of the Doctor and his companion was incidental at best.
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hushicho
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Post by hushicho on May 30, 2004 0:46:00 GMT -5
I had no idea that he'd tried to get Lis and Louise back, although I think Romana would've worked better as a linking element and would've been a bit more believable too (unless of course Sarah-Jane could've been written in as visiting the Logopolis project or something like that.) I know Janet was cast to appeal to Australian fans, but I know also that Nyssa was written in at the last minute due to Tom Baker's insistence that she be taken on-board the TARDIS after her excellent rapport with the cast in 'The Keeper of Traken'. I think JNT rather liked her too so was agreeable to this idea. But can you imagine if Sarah-Jane or Leela had returned? What an odd dynamic that would've been. I can imagine it probably would've caused a little bit more controversy than would've been good for the show at the time though...I think it would be awkward having 'senior' and 'junior' companions! It might've been interesting to see how the interactions were done, but ultimately I'm not sure it would've been altogether satisfying. We'd have the Doctor and Sarah-Jane working on their own, and the others trying to keep up I'd imagine! It was extremely weak. And to boot, the script seemed to prefer the character Todd to the Doctor's actual companions! Tegan or Nyssa, either one, could've easily filled half her role. As it happened it looked very much like Todd was the replacement for other female companions during the story, which was quite annoying. They can't expect me to believe they couldn't have given at least half her dialogue to Nyssa; the girl was as much a technical genius as Adric (if not moreso in many fields, as he'd said a few times himself) and discussed TARDIS technical details on the same level as the Doctor! Oh, by the way you almost hit the nail right on the head: 'Kinda' was originally a script intended for the fourth Doctor. It was indefinitely postponed again and again, until it was accepted by the incoming fifth Doctor team. The story, I believe, had been written for the fourth Doctor and Romana, I want to say...which would explain Todd's large role in it as a competent technician and scientist. I think she must've been the role that had originally been Romana rather than a non-TARDIS crewmember. Although I still can't understand why they didn't simply convert some of the dialogue to Nyssa and pick up the rest of the slack with an older female character like Todd! It certainly would've given Nyssa something to do in this story other than sit around the TARDIS. That's true, but Sarah Sutton is also an excellent actress and, in her best stories as Nyssa, proved that the character's inclusion in the TARDIS crew was one of the better decisions of the era. I rather liked the impulsiveness upon which she seemed to show up, and often her contributions were quite good. It was unfortunately a case of her only really getting any use or development to her character right before her departure though. When she was at last the sole companion of the Doctor, she proved her ingenuity and strength that she'd shown before in 'The Keeper of Traken'. 'Snakedance' showed more that she was becoming less meek and more strong, more impulsive and headstrong but nonetheless competent. 'Mawdryn Undead' let her accompany the Doctor again as almost the sole companion whilst Tegan adventured apart from the group for a while, although of course they were both overshadowed by the larger-than-life Brigadier (who should've been Ian anyway!) And of course 'Terminus', while it did have many of her best qualities in it such as strength, her human emotion and compassion, her fears and her bravery at the same time, and her indomitable resolve, it also had the unfortunate quality of having her pulled around and intimidated, abused and scantily-clad the entire time, not really qualities that typified her tenure with the Doctor. I digress, but essentially what I'm trying to say is that she had a lot of potential too as a character, and it really wasn't realised by the writers or the script editor until it was very nearly too late. Some of Nyssa's potential went entirely unrealised as well. Yes, there's more of the inconsistencies as we've discussed before. Of course, more issues with 'Mawdryn Undead' have Tegan speaking with great conviction about the dangers of matter transportation, and in another she questions Mawdryn about complex physiological matters! In any case, there were a couple of instances where she did seem to pilot the TARDIS, which were dismissed by the Doctor. Given the fifth Doctor's talent for not quite getting where he was intended, I'd say Tegan piloted the TARDIS every bit as well as him! Right, and I'm not really complaining...Turlough was quite easy on the eyes! But at the same time I really wish Nyssa had been given a chance. It might've given Turlough a bit more development to interact with someone other than Tegan and the Doctor, although we couldn't have development could we!! Nyssa really did get a much heavier role in the episodes after 'Time-Flight', brief though her stay was; I was just thinking about it, and with Tegan a captive of Omega in 'Arc of Infinity' and possessed by the Mara in 'Snakedance', Nyssa really was the dominant companion there. She was also rather heavy on dialogue in 'Mawdryn Undead' and of course off on her own in 'Terminus'. Well, I heard that Sarah Sutton got down to her skivvies in a gesture of farewell to her fans, some unfortunate number of which had time and again complained about the fact that she constantly covered herself from neck down. It did seem rather ridiculous though, and I thought it was somewhat less than convincing. It was given a good reason in the plot itself, but at the same time it seemed inappropriate nonetheless. I think 'The Completely Useless Encyclopedia' referenced this and said that, conversely, Nicola Bryant's parting gesture to fans was to put on some clothes. Still, we also managed to get Turlough in a nice snug speedo (although sadly he didn't remove his top as well)...was it just a trend for the fifth Doctor's companions to get rid of their clothes when they left? Tegan's skirt was ridiculously short. But then again, Adric kept all his clothes on, as always. Thankfully. Not that it helped hide it much when the Master got him up in that web; he really should've 'adjusted his clothing' between shots...the same goes for poor Peter Davison, several of whose shots really accented his crotch in an extremely distracting way. All that's necessary is a cursory viewing of 'Enlightenment' or 'Resurrection of the Daleks' to see that his Doctor's package refuses to be ignored! I wonder if it was the pants that accented it?
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hushicho
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Post by hushicho on May 30, 2004 0:46:59 GMT -5
As for 'Kinda' and 'Snakedance' being good for Tegan's character...I think it was more along the lines of it being good for the actress but not necessarily the character. It showed her versatility and ability to play different aspects of a role, but I don't think it was altogether very enriching for Tegan to be possessed throughout an entire story. Also, wouldn't it have been more terrifying if it were someone usually kind and gentle, like Nyssa, to go around causing chaos and destruction? Yes, there were a precious few moments when the Doctor would say 'brave heart, Tegan' or the like and try to reassure her, but I think that the two were really set against each other too much. What especially annoyed me about their interactions were times when, if Tegan were instructed to stay in the TARDIS (like 'Enlightenment') the Doctor seemed more exasperated on finding her elsewhere rather than being relieved she was safe, like previous Doctors most likely would. That's another reason why I certainly never regarded the fifth Doctor as the 'nice' one! There were a few times though when the two seemed to get along well, like the amusing conversations in 'Warriors of the Deep' (which was pretty good scriptwise if somewhat visually lacking), or Tegan's strength in a potentially fatal situation in 'The Awakening', even the Doctor's treatment of Tegan in 'Frontios' showcased a deep mutual respect and fondness that would be the only way people would allow themselves to be spoken of in such a way! 'The Five Doctors' was another time in which the Doctor very obviously cared for Tegan, when confronted by the Cybermen. Little but real things, certainly. I think the fifth Doctor's vulnerability worked against him many times though, and the fact that his regeneration was so traumatic and made him change so much may have cut off knowledge from him that would have helped him. His approach also differed from the others, making it difficult at times for him to relate to his companions, as evidenced by their discontent from time to time. Perhaps his appearance made it difficult for him to decide exactly how he wanted to relate to them, since he looked too youthful to be particularly avuncular as the previous ones had, yet he could hardly relate to them on their levels of age unless Nyssa and Adric were drastically older than they looked! Indeed Nyssa and the Doctor did discuss something briefly in 'Arc of Infinity' that implied Nyssa might be quite long-lived indeed... But the Doctor was moody and often wishy-washy during his fifth incarnation, something which worked against him more often than not. He would wait far too long, until everything was laid out before him in the situation, and consider everything before acting. That having been done, he would often rush around in the last few minutes trying to resolve the situations and often not quite succeeding. His victories were more often than not incomplete ones, and sometimes they were achieved merely by him and his companions being the only ones left standing! I think this is actually put on the upcoming 'The Two Doctors' release! I've been wanting to see it for quite some time. Maybe this is after the Doctor felt bad, and went back and talked to her after the events of 'Resurrection' as I said. It has always interested me about them though, Janet Fielding toured with the '87 US convention tour for Dr Who, along with Colin Baker, Nicola Bryant, and John Nathan-Turner. Jon Pertwee was involved in it on some stops, which is incidentally where I met him. But apparently Janet distanced herself from the show for a while after this, and has only recently returned to the community. But I had always sort of wanted to see how Tegan and the sixth Doctor would get along. I'll bet they're quite good together! Yeah, although I will say at least he was given some mystery to his character in that it wasn't explained who he was or where he came from until his very last serial. I just wish 'Planet of Fire' hadn't been so totally underwhelming otherwise, despite the introduction of Peri. I liked him on the rare occasion that he seemed like he was being used competently, or developed at all instead of just being a toadie. 'Warriors of the Deep' and 'Frontios' were particularly good about giving him reasons to do things and showing more than just a hackneyed side of his character, which I thought was good. Really most of his appearances in season twenty-one weren't bad at all, and I can see why Peter Davison regretted leaving the show after seeing the scripts. They showed improvement over what had been done before, and I think had it been the fifth Doctor, Tegan, and Turlough for another season it probably would've been much more enjoyable. I thought it was nice as well, in 'The Five Doctors', having Turlough and Tegan go along with the first Doctor and Susan. It gave them all chances to develop further, especially Turlough; we also got to see the artistic side of the boy at the beginning, which was another nice aspect of the story since we really didn't know anything about him or his hobbies or talents. I don't really like the idea of a companion for the Master, as he doesn't really seem the type to keep one. He could keep around someone for their usefulness temporarily, but I doubt he'd retain anyone for any length of time. He'd probably get people who would just as quickly double-cross him as he would them, and they'd part ways probably on bad terms sooner or later. Doesn't seem like he'd want to bother with that sort of hassle. Well you'd think, though, that there'd at least be a decent farewell. It sort of annoyed me that there was no real to-do about it at all. It sort of reminded me of Sarah-Jane Smith's departure in some ways, although it was nowhere near as touching or well-done. From the 'Resurrection' commentary, even the production staff weren't entirely sure when she was going to leave, but they were indeed running out of time; she had decided, as had Mark Strickson (Turlough), to leave when Peter Davison made his choice not to continue the role before season 21. Since JNT wanted to have someone along to ease the transition, they quickly got 'Planet of Fire' to introduce Peri. I think 'Planet of Fire' must've been commissioned quite late in the game though since it takes so many important loose ends into account; Turlough's people are central to the story, as is his backstory, Kamelion is finally written out after being totally useless since 'The King's Demons', and Peri arrives on the scene. It also serves the purpose of sort of (but not really) resolving the tension and many conflicts between the Master and the fifth Doctor. At the same time, I can't help but wonder: when the Doctor said he must mend his ways at the end of 'Resurrection of the Daleks', in the very next story he's condemning the Master to his fate and utterly obliterating Kamelion! I was never particularly fond of 'Planet of Fire'...despite all the eye candy no matter what your preference (sexual or geological!), there's precious little other than that.
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hushicho
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Post by hushicho on May 30, 2004 0:47:24 GMT -5
I never understood why he decided to do that, because honestly Doctors have a 'feel' to them, as I was discussing with a friend of mine. Each Doctor tends to have a particular kind of story archetype, and 'The Twin Dilemma' really wasn't a sixth Doctor story. His tended to deal with social interactions and deep cultural problems. 'Twin Dilemma' was really more of a fifth Doctor story that seemed like it was retooled at the last minute to include the sixth instead.
I think also it has to do with the fact that he never really made much of an impression, and I really don't mean to sound cruel with that. Davison's acting was always good, his companions were individuals, but as Janet said in the 'Resurrection' commentary, 'it simply wasn't there on the page', reflecting her own frustration with her character. I think the writers really weren't sure where to go with him, and of course Saward and JNT had their own ideas, and Davison had his own, and everyone else had a different opinion. What we got was a terribly inconsistent Doctor who didn't develop so much as shift in and out of moods.
It's a shame too, he wasn't at all a bad Doctor. I think a lot of people just got fed up with the flimsy scripts that dotted his tenure as Doctor, and especially the fact that he tended not to resolve things completely due to his nature.
That's exactly it, that's just the way I feel. It all seemed to be just one story and became very tiresome for that reason; you felt like you were always constantly jumping into a larger story. It's why the Trial of a Time Lord season became tired before the end, because the trial kept breaking in and disrupting the serials; I was quite glad to see the very little interference during Terror of the Vervoids! This was sort of that same feeling, that something was breaking in and interfering, and if you jumped in not knowing then you often felt overwhelmed by what you'd missed.
The fifth Doctor really needed more stories like that, because there were no breaks at all. I was watching 'City of Death' just last night, and I particularly liked the fact that the Doctor and Romana had gone on holiday to Paris. For the better part of the first episode they were just enjoying their trip! 'Black Orchid' really was quite relaxing, but at the same time it was an unscheduled trip...I think the Doctor, by that point, should've just decided it was time for a break.
I was relieved to see the stopover at the Eye of Orion in 'The Five Doctors', which gave the crew a bit more to do in terms of relaxing. They also intended to relax in 'The Awakening', which initially went awry but presumably they accomplished later. But none of these were really the same mood as any fourth-Doctor excursions. Even 'The Leisure Hive' had a quite leisurely (no pun intended) feel about it, whereas with the fifth Doctor everything seemed rushed or as if something great hinged on them hurrying. Probably because by the time he did act, the fifth Doctor was always so urgent about everything.
Probably due to his high metabolism which also allows him to heal so quickly. I think that's what they were trying to do with this. The other characters got some nice development too though, I was very grateful for 'Black Orchid' and everything it allowed the TARDIS crew to do. It was also a nice sort of 'historical' piece, which there just weren't enough of.
Yes, I was watching one of the shorts on the 'Resurrection' DVD that was saying how much more pleased this department or that department was with doing this electronic music and how they could work for a few hours and throw it out if they didn't like it because it was so quick and easy (comparatively) to make...but quick and easy doesn't cut it when you're trying to set mood.
Having reviewed a few fifth Doctor episodes recently for purposes of this discussion, I have to say that watching 'City of Death' (fourth Doctor for any reading who don't know) is like a totally different series! Whereas the music in 'City of Death' set the moods, accented the situations and their circumstances, and generally added to the tone of the piece (especially the theme along the finale), most of the Davison episodes didn't have particularly distinctive arrangements. The ones that did often didn't really have appropriate instrumentation, or at least not 'real' instrumentation. I fail to see how much more difficult it would've been to get someone talented like Dudley Simpson in to do these themes arranged after they hammered their frames out in electronic.
In a lot of games, as I'm sure you know, the themes would be rendered electronically for the games' purposes, and then often arranged versions would be released as soundtracks, in Japan at least where gaming was more popular at the time. And this was immensely successful. Electronic music can be quite good and quite appropriate at times, but it often isn't appropriate at all times and in all circumstances. To boot, I think dramatic or historical series need the touch of real instrumentation to lend to the atmosphere. I don't particularly find myself drawn into a tenth century setting if the music sounds like it's being done by Depeche Mode!
Yeah, I think it was just laziness on JNT's part. Still, even though Bidmead was a pretty good writer he certainly should've recognised that Saward, conversely, was not. I just can't see how someone who can write such an excellent story as 'Frontios' could recommend someone who wrote *shudder* 'The Visitation'.
Yeah, nobody should be forgiven for that one. I think that's one that we can just collectively brush under the rug!! But yeah, that does sound like JNT: life on the cheap. If they'd put effort into it instead of spending ungodly amounts of money on things that didn't matter to most fans, they'd have had a much better product. I just think JNT was more focused on his own ideas and goals for the show rather than being in touch witht he people actually watching it from week to week.
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hushicho
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Post by hushicho on May 30, 2004 0:47:42 GMT -5
Not that I dislike Nicholas Courtney, but really they shouldn't have placed him in a script done for Ian Chesterton as the Brigadier! That really is no excuse; it all boils down to the fact that JNT should not have commissioned a script from someone without first securing the talent (William Russell) that the story had been written to accommodate. By the time JNT even looked for a replacement, the story had been placed in a slot for the season and entirely written!! So of course they couldn't rewrite it too terribly much, making it an absolute continuity disaster and something that's probably best forgotten altogether. Perhaps we can explain it away by saying it was the Black Guardian's illusory trap...
Yes, you're right about that. Although I didn't really like Sarah-Jane's departure, I thought it was well-done for what it was supposed to be. I liked it better than most of the other ideas I'd heard they were thinking about doing! And really it was the best possible way to do it...no departure for Sarah-Jane was going to be particularly satisfying since she had accompanied the Doctor for such a very long time and become such a part of the show. Jo Grant, too, had a less than satisfying departure, but the final shot of 'The Green Death' made it very touching and sweet, that the Doctor was leaving behind someone who had become so very dear to him. Their dialogue, and his offer to her of the universe itself at her fingertips made it all the more poignant.
Still, goodbyes have never been my favourite things. I've never particularly liked how they've been handled in most cases. With many companions' departures, they've always seemed so abrupt or outright ridiculous, and I'm afraid I found it quite hard to believe that Jo Grant could fall so hard for that self-absorbed flake she did, in such a ridiculously short amount of time...I can't say I was fond of him at all! The same for Leela...there was absolutely no reason for her to stay with Andred. There was absolutely no chemistry between them whatsoever! So the poorly-scripted 'romances' were almost always incongruous. They'd have been handled much better by having the gradual introduction of a character who slowly grows close to the companion and then having them leave after several stories' inclusion. I felt cheated having some of the companions just up and leave after maybe a few hours in a person's company. I think we all know that's not quite the way it happens!
Anyway, I'm getting off-topic; the fifth Doctor's companions' departures were easily among the worst of the entire series. None of them had a showcasing final story, and none of them did particularly make an impact with their departure. There was some emotion between Nyssa and the Doctor in Terminus, but overall it was a rather abrupt end and was ruined by the inclusion of yet another cliffhanger featuring the Black Guardian; it would've been nice just to have Nyssa departing and have the story end. Tegan's departure was ruined by the Doctor's weird lack of concern that his companion of quite some time (since his regeneration!) was running off in an area that had until a few moments ago been a warzone! Furthermore there were soldiers still at large, and the Doctor had no assurance that all Daleks in the area had been taken care of. And Tegan took none of her belongings from her room, which I don't think anyone in her right mind would leave, and stepped out into a world three years past when she left it. Somehow I don't think so. And then Turlough, after passionately confessing that he has learned so much from the Doctor, nonetheless makes the choice to return to his homeworld as part of the losing party of the civil war he fled!! Even if they aren't being actively persecuted any longer for their political beliefs, the social stigma will not go away for generations...he was utterly stupid to just go if he enjoyed travelling with the Doctor so much! It just didn't add up. Like most of the fifth Doctor's resolutions, it didn't quite add up.
Very true, but then again three years was still three years to be associated with a part, which was enough to make some actors fear typecasting even at that point. Although I still say that, had Davison, Strickson, and Fielding continued on for a fourth and final season of their TARDIS crew, we might be saying different and more positive things about them right now.
I agree, I was extremely surprised upon seeing it again after so many years the first time. And amazingly it's held up to repeated viewings, unlike so many of Davison's other stories. 'Frontios' was probably his outright best of his final season, I think. It was certainly the most enjoyable in my opinion, and the least frought with craptacular flaws...
[/quote]Ha ha and somebody should have told the costume designers that 'Sea Devils' were not samuari turtles in armour they could barley move in, and the Silurians used that light in their heads as a heat beam, not to flash when they talked!! (one wonders the carnage that happened while they chatted to each other, "Ow!! Stop heat beaming me off and on!!") And dont get me started on the Pantomine horse called the Myrka[/quote]
Yeah, there was so much inconsistency here. I rather liked the design for the Sea-Devils and Silurians, but there was the problem that they were rather immobile in the extensive armour and of course as you so hilariously pointed out, their heat beams that no doubt caused great annoyance when speaking; perhaps it's the Silurian version of Tourette's Syndrome that afflicted these three.
I don't see how anyone could forget that the Silurian third eye was a heat beam...the most terrifying cliffhanger from the original appearance of the reptilian creatures was when they burned through the wall behind the Doctor and stepped out towards him! I certainly have never forgotten that from the first time I saw it. Just goes to show even more that they were trying for the superficial atmosphere of the earlier stories yet neglecting any effort put into getting the details right.
And of course the biggest of all these flaws was the fact that the idiots referred to them as 'Sea-Devils' and 'Silurians' despite the fact that they were never once referred to as that formally and did not refer to themselves as that!! Let's just chalk that one up to a bad TARDIS translator and pretend it didn't happen in the story.
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hushicho
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Post by hushicho on May 30, 2004 0:48:00 GMT -5
He's certainly unstable enough. We'll just have to listen for a stutter -- oh no, wait, he has no humanity inside him, unlike Stien; no inner moral conflict there. ;D Yeah, that was another aspect of it that was really terribly stupid of them to include, because it made it seem even more unresolved. The Doctor's assertion that they were 'unstable' really doesn't make anyone feel better at all. So what? So was Stien. So were the others! But yes, that was included but unspecified in what I was saying: there was too much going on in this story and it all managed to get away from the writer. That's one reason I suppose why the fifth Doctor missed total resolution to most of his problems, because the writers lost track and only remembered when it was too late to have the Doctor resolve it! I didn't really think 'Planet of Fire' was all that good really, just a utilitarian serial in my opinion. I saw it as them using a single story to take care of as many loose ends as possible, and it was extremely unsatisfying to me. And of course there was the taking-advantage-of-Lanzarote that didn't quite work since the alien landscape looked exactly like the holiday spot they'd just left! No wonder Peri didn't think she'd been on a trip through space. Still, Davros was best in 'Genesis' and best-written there too. I think he lost something in subsequent appearances. Even though he was quite good in 'Revelation', I still don't think he was particularly well-used in any of his other appearances. Not to say that Terry Molloy isn't a good actor or anything, but I honestly think that Michael Wisher's portrayal of Davros in 'Genesis' was so absolutely striking and memorable that everything else sort of had to take a backseat to it. That, coupled with the fact that we'd not seen Davros up to now despite the sheer number of times the Doctor had clashed with the Daleks, made it seem particularly forced that after 'Genesis', we saw him every single time they were around. Yeah, which really is a 'shoot yourself in the foot' scenario. He was only harming his own creations by doing that, because it wasn't like they were going to get exposure anywhere else. No, I mean before that even. I know about Davros hovering in 'Revelation', but I believe there was an earlier instance of something similar and I can't think of it at the moment...give me time though, I'm sure it'll come to me sooner or later. That was very magical...I really wish they'd kept that. I think in trying to make the show 'harder' and more 'serious', they lost something of the magic that made the show so much fun in the years of the second Doctor and around then. There was an innate magic in it that made it charming and fun, and even a little bit scary. I think, ironically, the terror was lost when the audience was given more of an 'adult' scenario. Like Tegan said, 'it stopped being fun.' I think that's really where it started to go downhill. The show was still enjoyable, but in very, very different ways. When it stopped being so much fun that it had always been, it became less enjoyable in the same way and really stopped being the same show. Anyway, there's another one. Enjoy! Love! Hushicho
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Post by Iain on Jun 1, 2004 1:11:03 GMT -5
And the horrible thing is that if he had actually considered that the viewers had brains at all, the show might've turned out a bit better for him. I mean, in the 'Resurrection' commentary, Janet mentioned that JNT made her put red in her hair for her first season so she wouldn't be confused with Matthew Waterhouse! I see JNT had bad eyesight as well as bad producing to his credits. Really? Funny enough I never really noticed them. ;D As I said earlier about Tegan, I would have liked to see Turlough as a Colin Baker Doctor compainion, the early Baker Doctor was a bit of a self-preservation type himself, it would have been interesting to see two men thinking only of themselfs really. You know I've heard about Davisons outfit changing ever so slightly (Warriors of the deep sported the new one I think) but I have never really noticed myself in watching the storys. A very good assessment of the JNT era there hushicho, a 'comic book' style did take over the show while John was running things. A small point that JNT introduced that I wanted to mention now before I get lost in another pint. Those question marks!! On the Doctors lapels (both Baker's and Davison) and the stupid brolly and sweater that Mc Coy had. By any chance did nobody have the guts to go up to JNT and say that "This was a stupid pun really!!" I guess not since he had surrounded himself with a bunch of 'yes' men and women. Really the whole question mark idea seems to be rather overstating the point really, "Oh Doctor Who? " Also another small point, (not as major really) once JNT took over the credits listed Tom Baker, Peter Davison, Colin Baker , and Mc Coy as "The Doctor" rather than all the previous years where the lead was referred to as 'Dr Who' in the credits. Seems like JNT replaces the sublime with the rather obvious. It was a rather blatant attempt by JNT to recapture the first Doctor, Susan, Ian, and Barbara family team that was sucessful for the shows first year. JNT never really grasped that it was the actors that made the format work, not the situations. Once again correct, JNT had very little experience with the previous show really, and the past was just something for him to better apon anyway in his view. Seventh Doctor storys can be divided into three seasons of style I think. Season 24 Slapstick humour and pratfalls by the hero, very irritating compainion in Bonnie too! Season 25 Pandering to the history of the show with a Dalek story and a Cyberman story that were both ok but hardly classics, a Happiness Patrol tale that would have fitted in nicely in season 24, and a circus tale (Greatest Show) that wasnt half bad really considering it was the 'rushed' story of the season. Season 26 Pseudo sci fi tales that were more confusing than enjoyable, season builds on the 'Dr Who is God' (Rassilon) a bit too much! I am not down on the seventh Doctor really I do enjoy some of his shows alot, just the way they are executed really. more to come soon, too much overtime this week gotta rest.
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hushicho
Fighter
~tsuki no hikari wa ai no message~
Posts: 86
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Post by hushicho on Jun 2, 2004 5:33:32 GMT -5
Well, even as I fancied Turlough I think it's not too hard to notice the difference between Turlough's legs and a generic actor's; just watch 'Planet of Fire' part one and then 'Mawdryn Undead' part one -- the extras in short jogging shorts have bird-legs, whereas Mark's are at least somewhat developed. That's true, it might be fun indeed although the sixth Doctor wasn't as entirely selfish as that statement may make him seem. I think the sixth Doctor was interested in himself and his companion(s) getting out safe and alive, but he wasn't above leaving someone who'd deservedly got themselves into danger, especially if that person were less than savory. However, time and again he did risk his life for people whose plights with which he sympathised. Yes, it's very slight, just a change in sweater really, perhaps one or two other cosmetic changes. I have to say though, I do like the second sweater better than the first. I wish it had been there from the start! Either you meant 'point' or you have been working a lot of overtime this week!! Yes...again, I find myself wanting to point you to The Completely Useless Encyclopedia as it probably has the most amusing discussion of this I've ever read. Since the seventh Doctor was REALLY mysterious, he had LOTS of question-mark paraphernalia! Honestly I loved the brolly, the sweater was very tacky though. He should've gone with a waistcoat. Yes, and the original TARDIS crew, while sometimes tense, always had the underlying affection for each other. They were like a family really, who sometimes did bicker and quarrel, and for very good reasons on all sides, but who ultimately did care deeply for each other. You could see that in every situation. Personally I loved Mel and I wish she'd stuck around longer. Of course, I think Bonnie Langford's very nice too...she even personally answers her mail...so I'm a bit biased. But I've always adored Mel. I think she gets treated horribly by a lot of the fans who don't give her a chance. A lot of them I've encountered seem to only think her irritating because a lot of other people do, when really I don't find her any more irritating than Dodo, Adric, Ben, the Brigadier, etc. All of them had good points and bad. As well, Bonnie had communicated that she was leaving at the end of season 24, and they weren't sure when to write that in. So as a result you had various characters in the stories up to 'Dragonfire' being introduced as prospective companions, like Ray in 'Delta and the Bannermen' who stole most of the story's 'companion' role from Mel. Although I will admit Mel had a crucial part to play and was very brave, if Ray hadn't been there she'd have probably done a lot more. You're right though, the Doctor was a bit more obviously bumbling in this season, although it very obviously disguised a greater knowledge and influence than he let on. It was more like the second Doctor's silly exterior that disguised the fact that he was often playing this facade up in order to take his foes by surprise when the moment was right for him to act, although the seventh Doctor seemed to me much more provocative and confrontational than the second. I thought 'The Greatest Show in the Galaxy' was the biggest misnomer ever. I found it to be dull and uninspired, and it felt like it was six parts rather than four. I remember the end of episode three, and I turned to the friend I was watching with and said, 'what, there's ANOTHER one?!' It seemed so interminably bad. And Cartmel's stupidity in striking the TARDIS sets was very very evident in the hastily thrown-together, horribly yellow-tinted excuse for a set that the Doctor and Ace are in at the start...which inaccurately places the TARDIS wardrobe right next to the console room, to boot. I got the impression that perhaps the real reason Cartmel held such distaste for the TARDIS interior was because he knew flap-all about it. I thought 'Remembrance of the Daleks' was decent, and it did do a very good job in hiding Davros's presence until the very end, which was in keeping with what I'd said earlier, that he should always be a background influence rather than an overt central player. 'Silver Nemesis' was good only in the unedited version presented on home video later, as the televised version was rushed an incoherent. I thought 'The Happiness Patrol' was one of the best seventh Doctor serials, and it absolutely stole the season for me. I hadn't actually seen it at all until fairly recently, and I have to say it holds up quite well in retrospect. It really did seem like just a night's journey into day, as it was intended...unlike the aforementioned season 19! Not a bad season though, and I will say I've watched several of the serials over and over again. I missed some of the aspects of season 24 though, because serials like 'Paradise Towers' raised a lot of questions and had a very rich setting that made me think. It seemed more real and engaging, and I liked that, whereas serials like 'Greatest Show' seemed like it was just all flung together with little thought of making us actually care what's going on, and what had gone on before... Yes, I will say that 'The Curse of Fenric' was the only one out of this lot that I really enjoyed. It was more reminiscent of the earlier Doctors' adventures, where they would dress up and try to fit in, and stay for quite some time in their destination as they resolved whatever problem popped up. It unfortunately fell into the same pit that a lot of the seventh Doctor's stories did, with having things from his past that we had never encountered before, but it was also at its foundation a straightforward and enjoyable story. I was really put off by the emphasis on Ace in this season...it was like they felt they'd forgotten to write her previously and thought that by drudging up her past they'd make up for it. As a result little development was given to the potentially engaging supporting characters in the stories, making them seem weak and flimsy. They also did too much, as you said, with dropping more hints at the Doctor's past, trying to build him up to be more than we had always thought. I think 'Silver Nemesis' and 'Remembrance of the Daleks' did about the limit of what they could do with that, and this tried unwisely to push those limits. I didn't like that at all. I was also especially unfond of the animal cruelty in 'Survival'. It was simulated, yes, but that didn't make it any less tasteless. The weird goings-on in 'Ghost Light' were interesting, yes, but ultimately they were also incoherent and nonsensical, and all this was overshadowed by yet more Ace-past rubbish. In 'Ghost Light' and 'Fenric', we also had scenes that would have been vastly superior if they'd been shot in the TARDIS console room...where it was very obvious they'd been intended but weren't shown. It made it seem all the more on the cheap by omitting a set that had obviously been written for. Thanks, Cartmel. I agree with you, I think that most of his serials were excellent in concept or script and just didn't quite hit the mark on execution. Perhaps 'Greatest Show' would've been one that wowed me had it been presented differently. But there are some aspects of his seasons as Doctor that I think were simply fundamentally flawed, and because of various influences (Colin Baker's unhappy departure, Andrew Cartmel's negative influences, JNT's further maligning of the series, BBC controller's open hostility) the seventh Doctor never really blossomed as he should have. They were too ambitious with many of his stories and tried to introduce things that were too unwelcome, changing the formula too much and making a good many fans sort-of glad the show ended when it did. After finding out what Cartmel intended after 'Survival', I have to say I'm extremely glad we never had to suffer through it! I await your next post eagerly. Rest up well though. Love! Hushicho
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Post by Iain on Jul 21, 2004 3:34:13 GMT -5
Thought I'd dive over this topic again since I feel an urge for some more JNT ranting after viewing some very good Pertwee storys recently. Well, even as I fancied Turlough I think it's not too hard to notice the difference between Turlough's legs and a generic actor's; just watch 'Planet of Fire' part one and then 'Mawdryn Undead' part one -- the extras in short jogging shorts have bird-legs, whereas Mark's are at least somewhat developed. Ah those malnourished bird legs you saw there were a typical example of the brit tourist complete with pasty white skin I used to see so often on hoilday in the english beaches. I however have strong Scots legs built for tossing cabers. ;D I could accuse him of being self serving in Timewarp and Revelation of the Daleks where he knownly led Peri into traps. But I guess other factors are at hand sometimes too. In many ways the Colin Baker Doctor mirrors the Tom Baker Doctor in temperment and attitude, now this may have been JNT's idea from the start but at least the Tom Baker Doctor displayed a high morale fibre, one we didnt see very often in the Colin Baker version. Ackk, thats my thick fingers I dropped the 'O' in trying to type fast....Bad choice of words there really, reminds me of one night when I wished a new member at Koei "Hope you enjoy it here" unfortunately I dropped the "P" by accident. And made a slightly less friendly greeting for a female member, luckly I caught it fast... (That typing position is still open... ) I'll have to look out for that book hushicho it sounds like a fun read. And as far as Sylvesters get-up I found it very difficult to take him seriously in later storys that required me to think of him as a powerful, knowledgable man after the mockery he made of himself in season 24, wasnt there a saying about the clothes maketh the man? How very true. It was a rather sad moment to see the beginning of the family break-up in Dalek Invasion of Earth when Susan left and then Ian and Barbara leaving the next season in The Chase the first Doctor never seemed the same after they all left, it was the end of an era really. Well the only thing I really found irritating about 'Mel' was her squeaky voice, other than that she was just as good a screamer as Jo Grant (Katy Manning screams weird by the way, I think) or Sarah Jane Smith, well lets not go too far there... I just wish they had fleshed her background out more, we never saw her place of origin or her arrival on the Tardis, or what she did before she joined the Doctor in his travels. More characterization might have endeared her more to the fans, I guess JNT was feeling lazy that day, or do we blame Saward there? And Mel's departure had to be the worst going away ever, when will the Doctor learn to put people back where he found them? What ever happened to cosmic purpose in the universe and all that cant interfere with anyone incase they do something important in the future? Or was that Star Trek I'm thinking of..? Ray seemed to evolve into Ace anyway although I think the 'Ray' character might have been more fun with the motorbike shy Doctor. Sly seemed very ill at ease on the Bike, and after Doctor 3 loved riding motorbikes too, forget something Doctor in a few regenerations? I actually discovered later that Sylvester has quite bad eyesight and cant wear contacts so he was pretty much blind in those scenes. Like that awful 'cliffhanger' for episode one of Dragonfire's conclusion? "and here for your entertainment the Doctor will take his 900 year lifes in peril and hang himself over a sheer drop for no particular reason!" Have you seen the extended version hushicho? They added about 25 minutes of extra stuff that padded the story nicely, too bad the ending still seems a bit rushed. I was really put off by the emphasis on Ace in this season...it was like they felt they'd forgotten to write her previously and thought that by drudging up her past they'd make up for it. As a result little development was given to the potentially engaging supporting characters in the stories, making them seem weak and flimsy. [/quote] I totally agree hushicho, I watch Dr Who to see the Doctor develop as a character, not his companions, and although some development is nice, the amount Ace got made me think I was watching the Adventures of Ace, with guest star the Doctor. Hmm I'm getting some strong anti-Ace sentiment here, and it is in some ways quite true, they tried to do a modern day Leela and ended up with something not quite the same, seeing Ace beat up a Dalek with her baseball bat, (even if it was powered up somewhat) was quite degrading to the Daleks fear factor established earlier in the same story, just as watching her bullseye Cybermen with a few gold coins and a length of knicker elastic, brought the silver giants down a notch in their fear factor too, and since when did the Cybermen treat gold like Kryptonite? What that the Doctor is God and created all time, well frankly it wouldnt suprise me knowing the production team, kinda makes the whole struggle of the Doctor against all evil pointless really if he is that powerful. Bah, give me the lost, fallable, in over his head Doctor of old anytime over this superhero infallable god that Cartmel designed. ha ha I am off overtime now for awhile, so even though I have less money to spend on dvd's games etc I at least now get mostly proper rest. I now look foreward with great anticipation to your next post, I intend to enter more things in the Dr Who topics this week too, so you may have your work cut out for yourself checking them all out. ;D
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