Degeneration of the Daleks..

[Iain]

Well the Daleks are Dr Who's greatest foe right? Well maybe....While they were supreme in many tales like "Dalek Invasion of Earth" and "Genesis of the Daleks" THey were pretty lame ducks in The Chase and Death to the Daleks truth of the matter is, what makes a good Dalek story anyway?

Dalek appearances on Dr Who.

A listing of all the Dalek appearances in Dr Who since 1963.

The Daleks 1963/1964 (seven episodes)
The Dalek Invasion of Earth 1964 (six episodes)
The Chase 1965 (six episodes)
Mission to the Unknown 1965 (1 episode)
The Daleks' Master Plan 1965/1966 (12 episodes)
The Power of the Daleks 1966 (six episodes)
The Evil of the Daleks 1967 (seven episodes)
Day of the Daleks 1972 (four episodes)
Planet of the Daleks 1973 (six episodes)
Death to the Daleks 1974 (four episodes)
Genesis of the Daleks 1975 (six episodes)
Destiny of the Daleks 1979 (four episodes)
Resurrection of the Daleks 1984 (four episodes)
Revelation of the Daleks 1985 (four episodes)
Remembrance of the Daleks 1988 (four episodes)

Out of all those above appearances what was their high point really and where have their low points been?

I'll be posting my personal choices soon..

[hushicho]

Well you knew I'd be the first to post a response didn't you!

My favourite appearance of the Daleks had to be in 'Frontier in Space' actually, because they were genuinely unexpected and just as genuinely terrifying. They were understated as well, which helped with their threat. I always found the Ogrons utterly terrifying, and I never knew why they stopped using them after that serial. The episode ending with the Ogron sitting at a console on an unknown ship in the middle of space always chilled me to the bone, not because it was outright scary but because you didn't know where he was, why he was sitting there, and what was going on...I'll always remember that.

As for Dalek-only stories, I think they were particularly impacting in 'Power' and 'Evil', although my experience with these tales is sadly limited to the audio or reconstructions. Personally my favourite of the existing Dalek adventures is probably 'Genesis', followed closely by 'The Dalek Invasion of Earth'. I rather liked 'Revelation' too, since somehow it gelled. In all of these they seemed to be very competent, very ruthless, and very deadly, giving the Doctor a much more pivotal role of saving the day.

It's hard to say a low point though, I think 'Resurrection' was particularly dumb due to the reliance on Davros and the human clones, and everything else that muddled down the plot. As well as that, for the vast numbers that died in that story, the Daleks didn't seem particularly threatening when a man who might as well be the Silly Putty mascot can just squeeze an inflated condom and put paid to them. Relying on humans too much cheapens the Daleks considerably. The difference between 'Resurrection' and 'The Dalek Invasion of Earth' was that the robomen in 'Dalek Invasion' were just that...mentally-controlled troops that might as well have been robotic! That's why it worked so well.

I think an overt reliance on humans is what defeats Dalek impact. If they have to depend on Davros, human troops with free will, or humanoid clones, what makes them threatening? They might as well just speak sternly and expect that to carry! The only Dalek servants with free will who worked were the Ogrons, and that's because they were terrifying in their own right.

That's my two bits on the matter.

Love!
Hushicho

[Iain]

hushicho said:

Well you knew I'd be the first to post a response didn't you!

Somehow I had a slight feeling you would be first. ;D

My favourite appearance of the Daleks had to be in 'Frontier in Space' actually, because they were genuinely unexpected and just as genuinely terrifying. They were understated as well, which helped with their threat. I always found the Ogrons utterly terrifying, and I never knew why they stopped using them after that serial. The episode ending with the Ogron sitting at a console on an unknown ship in the middle of space always chilled me to the bone, not because it was outright scary but because you didn't know where he was, why he was sitting there, and what was going on...I'll always remember that.

Thats an interesting choice, I knew the Daleks made an appearance in the last half of episode six of 'Frontier' and they certainly got the story moving nicely into "Planet of the Daleks" the following week. (Ironically Frontier and Planet were supposed to be a 12 part retelling of the Daleks Masterplan from the 60's. In a somewhat loose way) The appearance of the Master with the Daleks was a rare suprise also.

That story was sadly Roger Delgados final appearance in Doctor Who before his tragic death, The Master had lost all his sinister threat from previous epics like Terror of the Autons and is now reduced to comic effect (reading H. G. Wells War of the Worlds while plotting a conflict between Earth and Draconia). He is joined by the Ogrons, who despite being excellent henchmen in Day of the Daleks have now become brain dead comic relief also. (But lets save that for a Master topic for now)

As for Dalek-only stories, I think they were particularly impacting in 'Power' and 'Evil', although my experience with these tales is sadly limited to the audio or reconstructions.

Me too, I hope that someday they find those episodes so that we both can enjoy them someday.

Personally my favourite of the existing Dalek adventures is probably 'Genesis', followed closely by 'The Dalek Invasion of Earth'. I rather liked 'Revelation' too, since somehow it gelled. In all of these they seemed to be very competent, very ruthless, and very deadly, giving the Doctor a much more pivotal role of saving the day.

Good choices my favourite existing complete Dr Who Dalek tale is "Genesis" and for some strange reason I always liked "Day of the Daleks" too even though it hardly showed the Daleks, the tale had everything, UNIT, time traveling terrorists from the future. I also enjoyed the Ogrons more in 'Day' than Frontier.

It's hard to say a low point though,

No it isnt, watch Destiny of the Daleks again to see Tom Baker at his silly height. Review coming soon..

I think 'Resurrection' was particularly dumb due to the reliance on Davros and the human clones, and everything else that muddled down the plot. As well as that, for the vast numbers that died in that story, the Daleks didn't seem particularly threatening when a man who might as well be the Silly Putty mascot can just squeeze an inflated condom and put paid to them. Relying on humans too much cheapens the Daleks considerably. The difference between 'Resurrection' and 'The Dalek Invasion of Earth' was that the robomen in 'Dalek Invasion' were just that...mentally-controlled troops that might as well have been robotic! That's why it worked so well.

But those 'Robomen in Dalek Invasion of Earth were just as important to the Daleks demise as the 'clones' in 'Ressurection' were, it was the turning of the Robomen that helped the Doctor gain control of the situation on the Dalek base, just as it was the Doctors 'turning' of Stein that helped him defeat the Dalek task force.

I think an overt reliance on humans is what defeats Dalek impact. If they have to depend on Davros, human troops with free will, or humanoid clones, what makes them threatening? They might as well just speak sternly and expect that to carry! The only Dalek servants with free will who worked were the Ogrons, and that's because they were terrifying in their own right.

Well giant apes can be very intimidating, however the low intellect of them tends to get the Daleks in trouble quite often.
Ogron 1 "Duh wheres the prisoner?"
Ogron 2 "Duh I dunno, what where we doing here?
Ogron 1 "Duh dunno, lets eat.."
Ogron 2 "Good idea, you are so full of good ideas"
Dalek (arrives to see empty cell) "Where the bloody hell is the prisoner!!! Someones going to be Exterminated for this!!"

So really the Ogrons were just a good scapegoat for the Daleks (and the Master) to blame their plans going wrong on.


"Wah somebody get this boy a banana!" Note the slopeing brow and dull look, very good for scaring the primatives and not much more really.

[hushicho]

Honestly, despite all its low points, I rather liked Destiny of the Daleks, for what it was. It of course paled in comparison to Genesis, as it had only just followed it in terms of Dalek stories, but it was still quite good for the interaction between the Doctor, Romana, the humanoids, and then the Movellans. I thought that the Movellans added an entirely new and interesting element to the Daleks by being adversaries that were even more deadly because of their appearances, to give other humanoids a false sense of security.

As for the Robomen, indeed they were instrumental to stopping the Daleks when they were turned against their former masters. However, they suited the story in that they were very minor and also were extremely unsettling. The troopers in Resurrection were a major part of the story; the Daleks hardly did anything without them! To boot, those dildo helmets should've just been omitted. In the words of Janet Fielding, 'I think those hats are special.'

Still, I agree with what you're saying though. I think that humans should not be an instrumental point of the Daleks' plans.

There's my bit.

Love!
Hushicho

[hushicho]

And Ogrons! I forgot Ogrons.

Although they were Dalek minions that were not robotic, they were still quite effective as they were terrifying as hell! A note though, their stupidity tends to wax and wane. If you watch 'Day of the Daleks', when they're being questioned by the Controller, one drones on about 'we found and destroyed' etc. like a Dalek. Then asked if he had any complications, he casually remarks, 'No complications.'

Personally I think the cliffhangers with the Ogrons in 'Frontier in Space' really did it for me; the bursting into the cell, the mysterious ship in the middle of nowhere...those were sterling! I did love the Master in this serial as well, even though as you say he was a bit self-indulgent at times!

But the Ogrons...yes! Why did they ever get rid of the Ogrons? They could've been excellent, they could've found the most terrifying use in later Dalek stories too. A shame. I love them.

Love!
Hushicho

[Iain]

hushicho said:

Honestly, despite all its low points, I rather liked Destiny of the Daleks, for what it was.

"If youre supposed to be a member of the master race? Why dont you climb up here and get me? Bye!" (Doctor to an enraged Dalek) Or something like that, Terry Nation had really hit rock bottom with this storyline, the Daleks were drilling deep for a plot as well as Davros.

The Daleks seemed to have abandoned Skaro in this story, had the Thals also left or all been exterminated perhaps, and once again the Daleks were seen using slaves to do tasks that machines could probably do better, of course then they wouldnt get to say "keep working!" loudly to amuse themselfs, Tom Baker had quite alot of fun with the terrible pepperpots in this tale escaping up a vent in one spot and mocking the poor Dalek that wasnt blessed with legs or hover device, and throwing his hat over another hapless Daleks eye stalk thus completely blinding it and providing much more merryment for all.

The Movellans were the perfect foil for the Daleks really, logical, relentless, powerful, and darn stupid relying on a big power pack on their side that drained them as soon as it was taken (or knocked) off, honestly all the Daleks could do was strap explosives to themselfs and suicide bomb the movellan ship.

1. Deadly Dalek suicide bombers, watch out free world!!
2. Doctor, Romana and two Daleks mug for a press photo.
3. Davros has been waiting.....For quite some time. (note the cobwebs)

Terry Nation wrote a rather lame story that Douglas Adams and Tom Baker got to have too much fun with really, but then when dealing with an enemy as ridiculous as the Daleks how can you not be tempted to play around.

I can only watch it now as a comedy really even though Terry Nation probably thought he was doing a dramatic plot, Nation was attempting to get his Daleks famous in America and that along with their 'sending up' in Destiny made the wait for the next Dalek story just that bit longer.

And the Movellans, never caught on so they never showed up in the show again, so I guess all those silver dreadlock wigs went wasted.

[hushicho]

I saw this particularly serial not too long ago, and I have to say that I found it rather enjoyable. It's especially good for Romana, and it shows that she and the Doctor work very well together. Personally I delighted in Douglas Adams' bits of the story.

At its heart, this really isn't a bad story at all. I think that it was one of the fundamentally strongest stories we had with the Daleks and, despite its basic simplicity, it came off quite nicely. However, if you look at it plainly, it's easily as depressing as 'Resurrection of the Daleks' was, if not moreso. It's easy to see that Douglas did have to do at least some considerable rewrites, and personally I found the comedy bits a relief from the heavy drama of the more serious stretches. If you look at it, it's really not as bad as some people would have you believe.

I think the biggest problem with it was budget, honestly. Even for a Doctor Who serial, it was remarkably cheap. I find it very hard to believe that studio lights were just lying around the Kaled city, for example! It would have been much more evocative and interesting had they used sets more similar to the Kaled city so recently shown in 'Genesis of the Daleks', to provide more of a memorable link to the earlier story. Even in the picture you showed it's plain to see that the development team's hearts were really not into this one entirely. Some of the effects and sets were quite good, whereas others were a joke at best. This is a little disheartening considering that Dalek stories used to get the majority of time and attention because they always drew such an audience. But I think at the same time that despite its budget, 'Destiny' does manage to convey its meaning to an audience.

I thought the Movellans were quite a good race of villains, and even though they did have the power pack problems it made sense for them to; they didn't believe any simple humans would have the intellect or the ability to deprive them of it. I found the Movellans to be quite engaging and interesting, and extremely well-done. It's such a pity that they were only mentioned after 'Destiny' rather than actually featured. I think it would've been very interesting indeed to see subsequent companions' reactions to them. I think someone like Nyssa would be simultaneously fascinated and appalled.

...and dammit, I wanted one of those wigs!

Anyway, as much as I would like to look unfavorably back on 'Destiny', I really can't. It's too enjoyable on too many levels, to me at least; there are too many other stories that are less enjoyable for what they are. I found 'Destiny' to be really fun to watch and a very good story, especially looking at it the way I do. At heart it's very bleak, but with the humour that only the fourth Doctor could provide so perfectly, it's tolerable and even enjoyable, much moreso than angst-fests like 'Resurrection'. Think of how much nicer 'Resurrection' might be if the Doctor had inspired his companions with a little smile and perhaps a bit of lightness rather than the constant air of depression? I think if morale had been higher in general the Daleks might not have taken such a toll...there was a distinct atmosphere of despair that made it seem very nihilistic.

Anyway, there's my two bits as always!

Love!
Hushicho

[Iain]

hushicho said:

And Ogrons! I forgot Ogrons.

Although they were Dalek minions that were not robotic, they were still quite effective as they were terrifying as hell! A note though, their stupidity tends to wax and wane. If you watch 'Day of the Daleks', when they're being questioned by the Controller, one drones on about 'we found and destroyed' etc. like a Dalek. Then asked if he had any complications, he casually remarks, 'No complications.'

Yes I remember that scene clearly and I guess I may have usually put it down to bad acting on the big guy in the Orgron suit or perhaps he had problems with words like "We," and "found?" but had trained himself to appear relaxed in saying "no complications" cooly. (I know I am extremly reaching here arent I?)

They were extremly strong and tough, I recall the Doctor trying his famous "Venusian Karate" on one Ogron only to see the huge ape turn around and strike the doctor back.
But they were easily fooled and needed some kind of guidence to even tackle simple duties it seemed.

Personally I think the cliffhangers with the Ogrons in 'Frontier in Space' really did it for me; the bursting into the cell, the mysterious ship in the middle of nowhere...those were sterling! I did love the Master in this serial as well, even though as you say he was a bit self-indulgent at times!

He did get just a bit silly in some bits, ironically the Daleks were meant to slay him if I am not mistaken, or at the very least injure him so bad he followed the Doctor back to Earth for a final encounter. But a rushed ending to shooting put paid to that idea. And a car accident killed this fine actor before a proper next story could be made.

But the Ogrons...yes! Why did they ever get rid of the Ogrons? They could've been excellent, they could've found the most terrifying use in later Dalek stories too. A shame. I love them.

Oh no not with Tom Baker ready for some fun in the next couple of Dalek storys. The Ogrons would have been getting hats thrown over their heads and tripped up by scarfs really.

[hushicho]

Yes I remember that scene clearly and I guess I may have usually put it down to bad acting on the big guy in the Orgron suit or perhaps he had problems with words like "We," and "found?" but had trained himself to appear relaxed in saying "no complications" cooly. (I know I am extremly reaching here arent I?)

Oh, I don't know. We all tend to find ways to explain away the shortcomings of Doctor Who; we all know its flaws and messups so well and can recognise them at almost a moment's notice, but if we've watched them enough and love them enough (and most of us have, certainly you and I have) we have an explanation for each and every one of them.

They were extremly strong and tough, I recall the Doctor trying his famous "Venusian Karate" on one Ogron only to see the huge ape turn around and strike the doctor back.

Yes, the Doctor was matched during his encounters with them, which was a very sobering thing; the third Doctor, you always knew, could pull the ace of his Venusian karate out if he really got himself seriously into bother. But with the Ogrons it was all but useless...they were just too powerful.

While I do agree with your comments about the fourth Doctor (it probably would've ended up like that, although they'd still be scary as hell), I think they would've been quite good against the sixth Doctor, with his raw strength and emphasis on physical confrontations. It's funny to note, that when Colin Baker took over from Jon Pertwee in the Doctor Who stage production in the 80s, the swordfight went from a full-out gentleman's swordfight to something where Colin, in his inimitably playful way, made it look like he was 'accidentally' or 'incidentally' just deflecting the blows and winning. He knew and knows the Doctor so well, I can't help but absolutely adore him. But especially for that kind of thing. I think the Ogrons in a story with him would have been magic.

He did get just a bit silly in some bits, ironically the Daleks were meant to slay him if I am not mistaken, or at the very least injure him so bad he followed the Doctor back to Earth for a final encounter. But a rushed ending to shooting put paid to that idea. And a car accident killed this fine actor before a proper next story could be made.

It was very tragic indeed, and it really just about spelt the end of the Master forever, until someone got the bright idea to bring him back. Which I think was fundamentally a very good idea, even if a good half of the Master stories post-'Frontier' were absolute crap.

I think 'Frontier' was extremely good though, whatever people say about it being slow-paced. It was six episodes, what did they want? I thought it was quite gripping, with the political strife and of course the behind-the-scenes manipulations that we as children all knew weren't quite on the level...Ogrons...Master...but what else was there? Then in episode six we all screamed out in delight when our favourite monsters showed up, as we hoped against hope that they would! And they did. It's magic like that which makes Jon Pertwee such a wonderful Doctor.

Love!
Hushicho

[Iain]

I havent forgotten about the Doctor Who discussion hushicho just trying to catch up with my sleep after a week of overtime hell.

Frontier was a very good story it has been years since I seen it but somehow we never really saw the Pertwee Doctor in future Space that often, usually he was marooned on Earth teamed up with UNIT defeating invading aliens, it was often refreshing to see the thrid Doctor away from that set up. (not that the 'Earth' format wasnt well done but after a few years the number of alien races coming to Earth was simply amazing, at least the Master had a score to settle with the Doctor, that was his reason)

As I said before on the Ogrons in Day Of the Daleks the giant chimps were given very little dialogue, to make them talk too much drew attention to their stupidity as the Master tended to do in Frontier a bit too much, they were his 'straight men' really.

Come to think of it the space scenes werent really that bad for 1973 era. An entertaining tale really that lead in nicely to the Planet Of the Daleks. (a story that could have used some of Frontiers pacing)

Back soon with more.

[hushicho]

I havent forgotten about the Doctor Who discussion hushicho just trying to catch up with my sleep after a week of overtime hell.

I totally understand. It's been a week where all my energy has been siphoned away by various projects and, somehow, just being awake! I've been so tired this week and I'm not entirely sure why.

Frontier was a very good story it has been years since I seen it but somehow we never really saw the Pertwee Doctor in future Space that often, usually he was marooned on Earth teamed up with UNIT defeating invading aliens, it was often refreshing to see the thrid Doctor away from that set up. (not that the 'Earth' format wasnt well done but after a few years the number of alien races coming to Earth was simply amazing, at least the Master had a score to settle with the Doctor, that was his reason)

You're entirely right, and to be honest I was getting tired of all the Earth-or-Time-Lord-controlled-space stories. I think it was a good idea to start with, but honestly there were just too many ways to have him be on Earth anyway...look at the Davison era! I think Nyssa even said 'Earth, again?!' in 'Black Orchid' if I remember correctly! I know someone bemoaned the fact that they seemed to be going back to Earth so many times in such a short period.

I think, though, it wasn't just the fact that people were getting tired of Earth-centric stories, I think it also may have been that the writers were finding it difficult to come up with, as you said, alien menaces that somehow, for some reason, find their way to Earth without somehow having the Master involved. And although Roger Delgado's Master is absolutely excellent, he was a bit overused in that era. Don't get me wrong though, I love the third Doctor and I think his time on the show was more or less absolutely wonderful! There was, however, some opportunity wasted and some potential unrealised with the Earth setting, and it was very refreshing indeed to see the Doctor going through space and time again. I suppose it made us appreciate it more when we didn't have it.

As I said before on the Ogrons in Day Of the Daleks the giant chimps were given very little dialogue, to make them talk too much drew attention to their stupidity as the Master tended to do in Frontier a bit too much, they were his 'straight men' really.

True, although they were still scary as hell in both stories! I wouldn't want to round a corner and be facing one of those!!

Come to think of it the space scenes werent really that bad for 1973 era. An entertaining tale really that lead in nicely to the Planet Of the Daleks. (a story that could have used some of Frontiers pacing)

Yes, the space scenes were absolutely incredible, especially for the era (and undoubtedly, the budget)! 'Frontier in Space' really impressed me on almost every level, although it did become somewhat daunting after a while that the Doctor and Jo kept getting bustled around prisons so much. It really was a very political serial, and that made it tiresome to some, I think. But at the same time it was also very interesting and very good, and it was quite solid. It was fast-paced, which made you interested but didn't stop the plot cold to investigate some minor element of the story that really wasn't all that crucial.

On the other hand, you're right about 'Planet of the Daleks'...when the tape set with the missing episode inserted back in was released, I have to say I was stunned! It's odd though, because I could swear I'd seen the contents of that particular missing episode in colour before, although I can't get a fix on it. Either way, I don't remember the story being so slow when I saw it in compilation form as a younger child. Honestly they didn't really accomplish much in the missing episode!! They didn't really do much in it that wasn't done, and better, in the existing (colour) episodes, so I suppose that may be why I didn't miss it. It was still an interesting and excellent story though, and I was drawn in by the story even if it was a little plodding from time to time.

I look forward to your next post.

Love!
Hushicho

[Iain]

First off I would just like to say that I hate being sick with a passion, I am just getting over a bout of the flu I think I picked up on a hike last weekend, and this combined with overtime at work and lackof sleep at home made me rather down this week...

Anyway back to the always interesting debate.

hushicho said:

I totally understand. It's been a week where all my energy has been siphoned away by various projects and, somehow, just being awake! I've been so tired this week and I'm not entirely sure why.

Hopefully you dont have a touch of the flu bug too, get lots of sleep and take it easy, rest is usually the best medicine.

You're entirely right, and to be honest I was getting tired of all the Earth-or-Time-Lord-controlled-space stories. I think it was a good idea to start with, but honestly there were just too many ways to have him be on Earth anyway...look at the Davison era! I think Nyssa even said 'Earth, again?!' in 'Black Orchid' if I remember correctly!

The idea was thought out by the incoming production team I think as a way of keeping the budget down, Barry Letts felt that Yeti's and Cybermen would seem Scarier on the high streets of London than a Galaxy far far away.

Apparantly Robert Holmes after scripting the first Auton story Spearhead from Space bemoaned this idea telling Terrance dicks and Letts that this format would be very restricting for writers on the show.
He said you basically had two story ideas now that the Doctor was trapped on Earth.
1.Invasion by aliens.
2. Homegrown mad scientists trying to destroy the world.

Spearhead was category 1, The Ambassadors of Death was category 2, then veteran writer Malcome Hulke came up with the The Silurians and we now had a third option ancient beings who lived on Earth before we existed.

Hulke wrote a complex tale of how the Doctor tried in vain to convince the humans and Silurians to live together peacefully but it was to no avail as the Brigadier blew up the caves before the race could be re-awoken.
This idea was attempted again two years later in the Sea Devils also to destructive conclusions. Sorry I am drifting way off Daleks here arent I?

I think, though, it wasn't just the fact that people were getting tired of Earth-centric stories, I think it also may have been that the writers were finding it difficult to come up with, as you said, alien menaces that somehow, for some reason, find their way to Earth without somehow having the Master involved. And although Roger Delgado's Master is absolutely excellent, he was a bit overused in that era. Don't get me wrong though, I love the third Doctor and I think his time on the show was more or less absolutely wonderful! There was, however, some opportunity wasted and some potential unrealised with the Earth setting, and it was very refreshing indeed to see the Doctor going through space and time again. I suppose it made us appreciate it more when we didn't have it.

Hmm maybe we both need to analyze the Pertwee years in a seperate thread, seems like we have a lot of good points to add there too. ;D

On the other hand, you're right about 'Planet of the Daleks'...when the tape set with the missing episode inserted back in was released, I have to say I was stunned! It's odd though, because I could swear I'd seen the contents of that particular missing episode in colour before, although I can't get a fix on it.

Dusty memories, I get them too, I still vaguely recall episode one of Invasion of the Dinosaurs in colour now the colour episode of this story was turfed by accident by the BBC archives thinking it was the old Troughton story the Invasion(episode one was simply called the 'Invasion' to avoid revealing the Dinosaurs too soon) all I say to this is "Imbeciles" dont destroy the past!! (rant ends)

Either way, I don't remember the story being so slow when I saw it in compilation form as a younger child.

I guess that strengthens JNT's comment once about lookingh at the past through 'rose tinted glasses' we tend to be less crictical of failings in shows when we were younger and we do look back fondley on those days, dont we?

Honestly they didn't really accomplish much in the missing episode!! They didn't really do much in it that wasn't done, and better, in the existing (colour) episodes, so I suppose that may be why I didn't miss it. It was still an interesting and excellent story though, and I was drawn in by the story even if it was a little plodding from time to time.

A lot of the Pertwee six parters were probably one or two episodes of extra filler, that shows more in the Tom Baker years where Seeds of Doom was a two part story in antarctica followed by four parts in England, or the Invasion of Time where a four part crazy stint on Gallifrey with the Doctor defeating the Vardans was then concluded by two surprise parts with the Sontarans.

But when you're young and eagerly awaiting next Sats episode of your favorite show, you arent really caring how long the enjoyment lasts are you. Video and DVD has really spoiled us hushicho we now get to watch entire storys at our own convenience, (although the War Games takes a whole evening really.)

More to come later...

Take care
Iain.

[hushicho]

First off I would just like to say that I hate being sick with a passion, I am just getting over a bout of the flu I think I picked up on a hike last weekend, and this combined with overtime at work and lackof sleep at home made me rather down this week...

Anyway back to the always interesting debate.

I'm so sorry to hear you've been ill!! I was wondering why you were so very scarce, but you just take your time and get better, I'll still be here when you do.

Hopefully you dont have a touch of the flu bug too, get lots of sleep and take it easy, rest is usually the best medicine.

Thankfully I think it's just some sort of weird energy thing made worse by the barometric pressure around here. It has been so ungodly humid and stifling. It makes you not want to do anything at all!!

The idea was thought out by the incoming production team I think as a way of keeping the budget down, Barry Letts felt that Yeti's and Cybermen would seem Scarier on the high streets of London than a Galaxy far far away.

It's true they do seem scary in a familiar setting, but to be honest to anyone with an imagination they're just as scary no matter where they are!

Spearhead was category 1, The Ambassadors of Death was category 2, then veteran writer Malcome Hulke came up with the The Silurians and we now had a third option ancient beings who lived on Earth before we existed.

That's true, although Holmes was really quite correct in his grievances. There were only fundamentally three different story types they could do limited to Earth, and most of the stories will fit into this. They were also extremely limited on the third because, well, how many races could have logically lived that could have survived secretly for that long? One or two, perhaps, but not too many more.

I have to say, 'The Silurians' was extremely unfulfilling in both its climax and the portrayal of the Brigadier during it. I honestly don't think that the Doctor, having as many contacts and friends as he did on Earth during that time, really would have logically stayed with UNIT after they did that. It was very problematic, it seemed as if the writer were reaching for an ending and coming up short, so he ended it the quickest way possible. I don't think it was particularly well-ended. Probably why we didn't really see that kind of ending too often.

Hmm maybe we both need to analyze the Pertwee years in a seperate thread, seems like we have a lot of good points to add there too.

Let's do that! That's a good idea, although you start this time. I dearly love the Pertwee years, but that's not to say I can't analyze 'em.

Dusty memories, I get them too, I still vaguely recall episode one of Invasion of the Dinosaurs in colour now the colour episode of this story was turfed by accident by the BBC archives thinking it was the old Troughton story the Invasion(episode one was simply called the 'Invasion' to avoid revealing the Dinosaurs too soon) all I say to this is "Imbeciles" dont destroy the past!! (rant ends)

Yeah, I think they're really regretting that now. As they should. It was an idiotic idea for them to just wipe those tapes. I still can't believe they'd be stupid enough to do that, I think it's absolutely shameful. But then again this isn't anything they don't already know, surely.

I guess that strengthens JNT's comment once about lookingh at the past through 'rose tinted glasses' we tend to be less crictical of failings in shows when we were younger and we do look back fondley on those days, dont we?

Well, it's true that nostalgia does help out many shows, movies, and the like. Sometimes, as well, having other things to compare them to does make things that came before seem better or worse. As well as this, I think it really helped that, during JN-T's period, for the most part there weren't too many stories on video at all, so it was difficult for people to look back objectively. All they had were memories, repeats, and of course the book line (which often took liberties with the script!)

Now we have all these videos out and can objectively examine the stories for what they were. Although there is something about each era of the show that gives it a certain atmosphere. I don't really know what it is...it's very hard to describe...but I think anyone familiar with the show knows what it is.

A lot of the Pertwee six parters were probably one or two episodes of extra filler, that shows more in the Tom Baker years where Seeds of Doom was a two part story in antarctica followed by four parts in England, or the Invasion of Time where a four part crazy stint on Gallifrey with the Doctor defeating the Vardans was then concluded by two surprise parts with the Sontarans.

Yes, I really thought The Seeds of Doom worked so well, and I wish more stories had been like that really! Sometimes stories that were allotted six episodes really did a whole lot of nothing with the episodes and would've fit better in four. However, The Seeds of Death is one of the rare few that actually keeps everything very exciting throughout all six episodes.

There were some serials where the story was benefited by having extra episodes where the Doctor and friends could be part of the place they were involved, and the story might develop more of the culture around them. But at the same time there were also serials where almost nothing happened for a whole episode, and you really did get the impression that it wasn't originally intended to be there, that it was, as you said, filler to fit a certain slot.

But when you're young and eagerly awaiting next Sats episode of your favorite show, you arent really caring how long the enjoyment lasts are you. Video and DVD has really spoiled us hushicho we now get to watch entire storys at our own convenience, (although the War Games takes a whole evening really.)

The War Games takes ages. I think that is one of my least favourite serials ever! *chuckles* You're right though, although I do remember the Saturday nights, waiting till 10 PM on the local public television station, when they would show a serial of Doctor Who. I was always so eager to see what it would be. It was always a delight to find out, although it was often even more delightful if they happened to show a four-parter and then a two-parter, or vice-versa; they wouldn't just show a two-parter by itself, thankfully. Then the sign-off. It was always time for bed after that, but I was always allowed to stay up to watch Doctor Who.

And really, why not? It's intelligent entertainment. It always interested me in the sciences when I was in school, and I was always in awe of the Doctor's inventiveness and intellect, but as well as this I always admired his individuality and his personality. He was always unique, no matter where he went. There was always just one Doctor! He would always be special.

Anyway, this is a delightful conversation, although we probably should start a new thread since it's gone far from Daleks. What do you think?

Love!
Hushicho