A dissapointment in SW

[TigerLord]

One thing I am dissapointed about is the weak characters in SW. The only character I've yet to unlock is Oda Nobunaga, and I do enjoy the game thus far and because I enjoy japanese history more than chinese this game has been even more interesting to me. However, compared to the characters in DW the SW characters are weak in my opinion. Ma Chao could take out most of the SW characters alone. Maeda has been compared to Lu Bu but lets face it, if there was a cross game like DW vs. SW Lu Bu would destory Meada without effort. I wasn't suprised about the caliber of the female characters because frankly I do not enjoy female characters.The one thing I will say is that Kunoichi (sp?) is a better looking character than any female in DW. I just thought I would post that. I do enjoy this game, and I do understand it could be said that this is much like DW2 when it was first being developed and expanded, its just in my opinion the samurai were the most talented warriors in the world but compared to their DW chinese opposites they are weak.

[hushicho]

Apples and oranges, TigerLord.

You're comparing game systems that aren't quite the same. The Sengoku Musou and the Sangoku Musou games are different in many ways. Furthermore, I must say that if you get to know the versatile and powerful combos of the characters (especially the female ones, who tend to be my favourites), you'll see that they can easily plow through leagues of foes.

So while I'm glad you posted your feelings on this, I don't agree with your statements regarding the game. I think the controls and characters are, on the whole, much better than any DW game I've ever played. In fact it was SW/SM that got me wanting to go back and play DW, rather than the other way around. I think the controls are a lot better and the characters are much more versatile and intuitive.

But then that's just my feelings on the matter, too.

Love!
Hushicho

[Shikanosuke]

I'm sort of confused on your view of the 'different game systems'. Perhaps I am just a complete novice. Samurai Warriors is basically Dynasty Warriors except with a different countries legends and some new features. Perhaps I just have not taken the time to figure out the characters complex combos. I still believe that all the dynasty warriors characters are more powerful overall.

[hushicho]

Well, be that as it may there are some subtle but nonetheless extant differences in the game mechanics and whatnot. Samurai Warriors/Sengoku Musou is a very different game to the Dynasty Warriors/Sangoku Musou series in many ways. Different countries of origin, yes, but more than that too. Anyway, there really are some fundamental differences that make it difficult to really compare.

Of course, since they also have some very obvious similarities, sometimes it's easy to compare them. But there is a level of separation of the two series.

I hope I don't sound crazy for this, but it really is different.

Love!
Hushicho

[Shikanosuke]

hushicho said:

Well, be that as it may there are some subtle but nonetheless extant differences in the game mechanics and whatnot. Samurai Warriors/Sengoku Musou is a very different game to the Dynasty Warriors/Sangoku Musou series in many ways. Different countries of origin, yes, but more than that too. Anyway, there really are some fundamental differences that make it difficult to really compare.

Of course, since they also have some very obvious similarities, sometimes it's easy to compare them. But there is a level of separation of the two series.

I hope I don't sound crazy for this, but it really is different.

Love!
Hushicho

haha. I don't think your crazy. I just need to know how the game mechanics are very different. On the contrary I believe them to be quite similiar.

[Iain]

Try this then.
I'd say there is more to Samurai Warriors than just another DW clone, the two games are very similar (koei producing both of course) but there are quite a few differences that set it aside from the standard DW gameplay.

Levels Most Samurai Warrior levels are very complex and contain realistic terrain the interior maze-like levels of SW with their death-traps are definately a treat and inspire gameplay never seen before in the DW series. Add the random generation of those interior maps and its never the same run through each time.

Experiance and Skill gaining Turning the usual way of building your warrior inside out, SW allows you to chose what skills to earn, as you progress through the game you make the choices in how your warrior turns out. and once you max out at level 20 you can start over and do it all differently if you wish. This is a feature I think DW games could really benefit from.

Create Officer mode This is the way create an Officer should be, you progress through trials and end up with the warrior, skills and weapon you feel best with. You even get a seperate story mode for the created officer to do. The only addition I would feel this mode truely needs is that when you pass a clans tests you somehow get incorporated into that clans story mode, it would make the feeling that you joined a clan feel even stronger. DW needs to work on their officer creation programe too.

Graphics and Pop-up Graphics are clearer and more detailed in SW and pop-up is quite clearly gone, enemies now only appear in your vision range and dont appear out of nowhere, DW tries to do too much putting everyone on the battlefield at once, this seems to be combated in DW4 and 4XL by having smaller battle areas to fight in. I realise that SW is the later game so it logically looks better, but SW just seems to handle all the problems that plagued DW better.

Control Control style is the same in Samurai Warriors you are used to in Dynasty Warriors but with a few additions, they took the lifebar button out,(never really used more than once per level anyway) and replaced it with a combat roll option, this really adds to one on one combat with an officer when you can roll behind him and suprise him, battles now ecome more action packed, as do one on one duels.

Combat Eight hit weapons are now here and the amount of varied attacks you can perform are quite amazing really, there are even attacks you can perform when you win a deadlock now! And true musous are very cool to watch as your character announces themself bravely, the knock down effect of true musou attacks at their conclusion also makes musou a more effective weapon when low in life now.

Other fun stuff Arrows are now unlimited no more searching for archers, Deadlocks now have a bar you can actually see how good or bad you are doing now, Bodyguards are simple and effective again, (they actually fight once more)The music in SW is quite impressive as is the voice acting. The two player linked musou takes a lot of getting used to but with the right two players it is a strategic way of timeing your attacks. (although it can also be quite annoying when one player is low in health and not the other)

Sorry I dont mean to run down DW here I guess I feel that SW energises the DW fanbase somewhat and the next DW should really impress us if they implement the steps foreward SW has made.

[hushicho]

I couldn't say it better myself, so I'll leave it to Iain. He's said all I'd have said and more, what a thorough and excellent rundown of the differences!

Love!
Hushicho

[Shikanosuke]

That was well put. However, even though that may be somewhat true that just proves that SW is more improved that DW. That doesn't change the weakness of the characters...but perhaps thats part of the 'realness"?

[hushicho]

I really fail to see how someone who can wipe out thirty people with a single combo is 'weak'...even characters with whom I'm not entirely comfortable have been able to blaze through leagues of enemies at once! Perhaps you just haven't learned the best combos to use or something, but even getting just the fourth weapon, you can usually chain together a simple combo that can wipe out a large chunk of a crowd. It's more intricate in timing, I think, than DW usually is; I'm no DW expert, but it seemed like it was different in that respect. If you learn the timing of the hits and initiate a combo at certain times with the different characters, you can obliterate an enemy force.

My favourite...of course...is Okuni, most of whose combos can clear out a crowd of enemies in the blink of an eye! They're amusing too, when she's juggling a trio of generals atop her kasa...but she's not the only one so gifted. Nouhime can rip through a mob, Oichi can trip, spin, and scatter, Ranmaru can wipe out whole groups at once...it's just a matter of finding their appropriate combos to use and getting your timing down. Try some of the combinations...just pound the square and triangle at different times, perhaps add a circle if you want to chain in your musou combo, and you'll see very quickly that the weakness you perceived is nothing more than an illusion. The SW characters are actually quite capable of cutting through their foes, just as much if not moreso than their DW counterparts.

Love!
Hushicho

[Shikanosuke]

Taking a 30 ko in a combo does not compare to the damage that can be caused by the DW characters. It may be that I am used to the DW characters who have an extreme range of attack such as Ma Chao or Lu Bu who can destroy mobs within seconds. Perhaps I may have sounded too insulting, the SW characters do have their strengths and the game overall has alot of improvements over DW4/XL. I still just cant concede that in any kind of match...like the duel modes for instance...the DW characters would hand them their heads for the most part.

[boogiepopmeup]

how do u raise ur char's differently? i thought they just maxed out by themselves.

[hushicho]

Raw power is not strength. It is the use of what power you have, rather than the power itself; it doesn't do you any good if you're stronger than your opponent, if they are more skilled than you are. So that is really the message I was attempting to convey. I don't know the strength levels and how they compare...I don't really see how they could be compared well, but then it's not something I've looked at. But my point is that even if they do possess the greater raw strength, it doesn't mean anything since the SW characters are nonetheless quite skilled and quite graceful in battle, making them very formidable opponents.

Love!
Hushicho

[Iain]

Shikanosuke said:

That was well put. However, even though that may be somewhat true that just proves that SW is more improved that DW. That doesn't change the weakness of the characters...but perhaps thats part of the 'realness"?

Weakness!? I got 3240 K.O.'s with Maeda Keijion the Dance of Kyoto level and I was able to forfill all objectives too. My Keiji was not even maxed out either.

I have also gotten over 1000 K.O.'s with Kenshin on his last level with the game set on hard mode too, (Kenshin hits hard but once again he was not filled up either) I do consider Kunoichi rather weak in comparison but then she is built for speed not power.

Plus with the stat/skill building ability you now have, if your warrior is not working out the way you like you have the ability to start over and try again with the reset function, going for life bar and musou abilities may help along with others. For the first time in a koei game you can really tailor make your own character here and make them as you wish for stats or skills.

Shikanosuke said:

Taking a 30 ko in a combo does not compare to the damage that can be caused by the DW characters. It may be that I am used to the DW characters who have an extreme range of attack such as Ma Chao or Lu Bu who can destroy mobs within seconds. Perhaps I may have sounded too insulting, the SW characters do have their strengths and the game overall has alot of improvements over DW4/XL. I still just cant concede that in any kind of match...like the duel modes for instance...the DW characters would hand them their heads for the most part.

I dont know I think characters like Keiji and Kenshin would quite easily hand the Qiao sisters their heads, but that is an unfair comparison really, lets just compare the two main big guys Lu Bu and Keniji.
(Iain edit) Getting too long here, to be continued below...

[Iain]

Shikanosuke said:

the SW characters do have their strengths I still just cant concede that in any kind of match...like the duel modes for instance...the DW characters would hand them their heads for the most part.

Well then lets just compare the two main big guys Lu Bu and Keniji.

Moves Ok Lu Bu has his main stomp and other nasty halbred waving moves plus that triangle stab that is very ugly. But Kenji has an eight hit weapon and adds many more strikes with those additional two blows added to any of his combo's plus his triangle move is a wonder to behold, he knocks a hapless victum up down and over after impaleing them, very ugly.

Musou/True Musou Lu Bu's main musou is not his money move really, it never has been, he does that spin a few times and finishes with a downward strike, (which most times is difficult to aim) his true musou is a bit better in DW4 as he finishes with a stomp too knocking everyone away. Keiji can be spun during his mousou so that he truely does hit all around him, and his true musou adds moves at the end as well as the trademark SW yell at the end which stuns or reels everyone around him allowing him to follow up with additional strikes if need be. While Bu's stomp and Keiji's yell are fairly similar effects I consider Keiji's to be slightly more functional moreso if you consider that a 'true musou' all the time ability can be 'learned' by Keiji and always used whereas a similar always on effect for Lu Bu takes up an item slot in his inventory.

Power I really consider the two characters fairly alike strength wise, considering as well how weal I though Lu Bu was when I first unlocked him and tried him out myself, I was able to take Keiji into hard mode right away with very minor power ups added to him, still I do think they are very alike in total power and damage really, Lu Bu may have a longer reach but Keiji holds his weapon a bit differently and that may be altered once again by mastering that stat 'Attack range increases.'

SpeedLu Bu is very fast for a big man, so is Keiji, add the reach in and its dangerous even to run from these two monsters, these guys should not be speedy too, just my personal opinion really.

Fighting against themThis is where Lu Bu shines, he quite really is a immovable tank to do damage to, whereas Keiji is quite easy to defeat if you are faster than him, I think if they had made Keiji as indestructible as Bu the comparisons would have been flying more, but koei may not have wanted the game to be too frustrating for gamers, and considering that you encounter Keiji a heck of a lot more in SW than you do in any of the Dynasty Warrior games really, this move may have been a wise one not making Keiji the unmoveable object Bu has become.
And really Bu has become rather too imoveable as they keep trying to find new ways to stop people cutting him down so easy. But lets see if Keiji gets popular and if a SW2 comes out he may have built a killer rep by then and gotten nasty and big too like Lu Bu.

Dueling, and Deadlocks with both Dueling with Bu is a risky business (unless you blow him up with Huang Gai's bombs) its possible to defeat Bu in duels but you have to be careful, deadlocks, I hardly ever win deadlocks in DW games anymore (dont have the fingers I guess) I can lose to many especially Bu, I do like the bar that appears on SW where you can actually see how well or bad you are doing, I win nearly all duels in SW but one thing I noticed when I was taking my unplayed Magoichi through those 30 levels of hell called the aybss, I encountered Keiji in about level 21 or so and we deadlocked, I was losing the bar battle even at the start it was all the way over against me with no chance of beating Keiji really.
Also like I have been saying about stats/skills you can learn and build on SW characters, you can increase your deadlock ability and even perform an addition attack on a defeated deadlock opponant from behind, now thats progress really!!

Fun Factor I am sorry but I find Keiji a lot more fun to play than Lu Bu rght now, maybe its Keiji's care free attitude and Lu Bu's grimness or perhaps I have seen too much of Bu these last four years and I am hooked on the newness factor of Keiji, ask me again in six months time maybe.

In closing I find both DW characters and SW ones have their own advantages, the Samurai Warriors game is still new and we should pay attention to its future to see if it makes its own empire like DW did in four years, I think there is room enough for both games really and hope to see them co-exist really. ;D

[Shikanosuke]

Another thing I dislike is some of the out of place costumes. Oda Nobunaga in a jumpsuit in feudal japan? Akechi Mitsuhide in european knight armor? Luckily their alternate constumes are much better.