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Post by Sky Scorcher on Jul 12, 2004 18:10:38 GMT -5
Guo Jia was a great strategist, and he was greatly underrated. If he was alive, then Cao Cao would have won at Chi Bi, and conquered all the land of China before 220 A.D.
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Post by Delacroix on Jul 12, 2004 18:20:02 GMT -5
Or so Cao Cao claimed. You are basing all of that on what Cao Cao said there is no proof at all that Guo Jia would of won at Chi Bi he had to deal with the sleeping Dragon the young phoenix and Zhou Yu so unless he was a super genuis with an IQ of 320 he would not have won.
And what you said about Zhuge winning battle after battle and Zhou Yu only winning one that is wrong. Zhou Yu beat Cao Ren but Zhuge took the citys behind his back. Zhou Yu died too early to show his full potential unlike Zhuge who just would not stop living. Its not fair to compare them in the battles they won as Zhuge was in far more battles than Zhou Yu was.
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Post by Sky Scorcher on Jul 12, 2004 19:46:02 GMT -5
Then compare their dedication to their kingdom. Did Zhuge Liang die envying another man? No.
I'm saying that he would have most likely recognized the enemy plan, before it was actually realized in history. If that happened, then Cao Cao might have had an opportunity to get his troops out of there. Chances are that if Guo Jia had been there, then Cao Cao would have might of not set up camp in that spot on the Chang Jiang river.
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Post by Sleipner on Jul 12, 2004 20:21:21 GMT -5
I was surprised to find out that sima yi was 30 years of age when chi bi happened - but he never saw through any of the enemy plots mainly because he wasn't a high ranking official at the time. Being Cao Cao main advisor i imagine Guo Jia would have been a great help in the battle for he not only had the ability but also the authority and control of the army that was needed.
Most overrated warrior - From the book Lu Bu doesn't do a great deal - but we can assume he earned a big reputation from deeds done before he joined Dong Zhuo. I would actually go with Guan Yu - ok he killed the likes of wen chou and yan liang when the wei generals didn't, but he is held in very regard yet he admitted zhang fei was stronger and he struggled against the likes of pang de.
Exactly, zhuge outsmarted zhou yu. Zhuge expended little and gained plenty whereas zhou expended lots for little gain.
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Post by Sky Scorcher on Jul 12, 2004 20:24:20 GMT -5
You also have to keep in mind that Guan Yu was 57 when he fought a younger Pang De.
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Post by Sleipner on Jul 12, 2004 20:32:35 GMT -5
You also have to keep in mind that Guan Yu was 57 when he fought a younger Pang De. Huang Zhong was nearly 70 when he fought Xiahou Yuan, Zhao Yun also slayed the 5 captians around the same age. Still, Guan Yu is overrated by a fair amount, consider why he was left in Jing all the time. Zhuge knew the army was fine without him and his skills were better served as a motivation tool for his officers and as a deterrant (sp) against enemy attacks then actually as a fighting general.
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Post by boogiepopmeup on Jul 12, 2004 22:32:49 GMT -5
so it wasn't that flawless i'm saying zhuge liang is not a good field strategist.
uh he totally lost to jiang wei, and only captured him becuz he tricked the prefect in jiang wei's absence. how about his encounter with hao zhao?
well then if kongming was so good, why couldn't he win?
i will not deny his ability to manipulate people, and much like fa zheng i can't argue his politics, but his field ability is lacking.
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Post by Sky Scorcher on Jul 13, 2004 0:51:41 GMT -5
Zhuge Liang was a good field strategist because he could recognize how important strategic locations were, and plan to seize them through their few weaknesses. Jie Ting, Chang An, and Han Zhong are perfect examples of strategic points, and that made him a good field strategist by knowing how the enemy would plan to move in battle, without causing fatique or famine.
I will add more to my point later.
Win what? He won so many battles. If you are refering to the Northern campaigns, then you also have to consider the lack of support from his own kingdom.
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Post by Sleipner on Jul 13, 2004 9:38:08 GMT -5
That was only a minor setback for zhuge and did not totally destroy the shu forces did it? Trickery is also a part of strategy - one could view this as zhuge outsmarting Jiang in this instance.
Hao Zhao's only aim was to prevent zhuge from passing that way - There is no way to outwit a castle that is concentrated solely on defence and has a capable leader in charge. There is a reason why defending is much easier then attacking. Plus did Hao actually defeat Zhuge? He only slowed his advance but didn't actually win a field battle against zhuge (unlike Wu at He Fei where Zhang Liao actually engaged the enemy and won a tactical victory.)
Many factors why he didn't win. Some stem from the personnality of zhuge - like trusting Ma Su, others from the strength of the opposition. He had Sima Yi working against him, a man many consider zhuge's equal. Sima also had many other capable men to help him such as Guo Huai and Hao Zhao. Sima had nothing to worry about apart from defense - it was down to zhuge to make all the offensives. What would have been the outcome if sima had attacked Shu? There is virtually no doubt Sima would have been defeated.
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Post by Shikanosuke on Jul 13, 2004 18:03:50 GMT -5
uh he totally lost to jiang wei, and only captured him becuz he tricked the prefect in jiang wei's absence. how about his encounter with hao zhao? Yes he did trick the prefect, but that won him the day.
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Post by boogiepopmeup on Jul 13, 2004 22:28:27 GMT -5
Yes he did trick the prefect, but that won him the day. how'd that win him the day? he retreated after that. plus u see how arrogant he was, just marching str8 into tian shui, never considering there might be someone of great talent. zhuge never outsmarted jiang wei. why didn't he just outwit him then? well the argument is that kongming is overrated, and everyone always says 'oh! he was the greatest mind of his time!' no one can prove that so therefor he is overrated. i really don't see how the establishment of shu can be credited so much to him. he had nothing to do with the occupation of the jing province, that was all due to zhao yun, zhang fei, guan yu. and i'm pretty sure shu could have been taken w/o him, just as cao cao beat yuan shao w/ the help of traitors, liu bei could have done the same. he totally owned kongming. and he only got through AFTER hao zhao was dead. confusious said: zhuge liang said:
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Post by Iain on Jul 13, 2004 23:22:34 GMT -5
how'd that win him the day? he retreated after that. plus u see how arrogant he was, just marching str8 into tian shui, never considering there might be someone of great talent. zhuge never outsmarted jiang wei. I think you are forgetting the ploy Zhuge did to win Jiang Wei over, he had a man impersonate Jiang Wei and set him up very nicely as Jiang raced from one place to another afraid of Zhuge taking his hometown and family. That surely counts as 'outwitting Jaing Wei when he left him no option but to join Shu. Oh boggie give Zhuge a little credit, going by the book he totally owned Zhou Yu during and after Chi Bi any number of times Zhou Yu could have murdered Liu Bei if not for Zhuge's uncanny foresight. The many great minds of wu were agast at Zhuge's debating skills im convincing Sun Quan to fight ZWei and not give in (thus dooming Liu Bei to running forever) Never mind the taking of Shu, Liu Bei wouldnt have gotten past Chi bi without Zhuge liang's help, Liu bei at best would be growing fat under Sun Shang Xiangs loving care while Zhao Yun got more and more bored wondering if a plan of escape was possible, without the bag of orders what to do, that Zhuge provided. Jiang Wei bested Zhuge liang in one conflict,(skirmish?) that hardly makes him better than Zhuge, even the greatest minds have an off day.
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Post by boogiepopmeup on Jul 13, 2004 23:28:27 GMT -5
and kongming only toyed with jiang wei's emotions to trick him once.
and w/o zhang fei, he'd still be sitting around sighing.
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Zanshiro
Peon
Roar, Blue Dragon!
Posts: 36
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Post by Zanshiro on Jul 16, 2004 16:49:40 GMT -5
To just place a factor here that is really not being mentioned: Honor. One reason that Lord Guan Yu was revered the way he was, and still is nowadays as the patron saint of martial arts and a god of war is that he strove for balance and righteousness of a warrior. True, he admitted to Zhang Fei being stronger, but not too many men were a match for the butcher. However, in their duel, his skills were enough to counter the great strength of Zhang Fei, despite Zhang's superior strength, and his will, honor, and loyalty were unsurpassed. Such is why Cao Cao was so determined to have his loyalty, yet was unsuccessful.
On the note of overrated, I too would have to say Lu Bu, for he was totally one-sided, and very disobedient. Perhaps "unmatched in battle" might not have been quite accurate...perhaps in close-range combat, but easily outsmarted, so often it would not get to that in a realistic situation, he would've been killed or isolated long before that happened. His 'legend' even ends as he said "My life was an essay in betrayal," or something similar, depending on translation. Such people are not legends, only legendary fools, who followed a darker path of corruption and weak will.
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masayuki
Peon
"Lu Bu prepare to die... zhang fei is here and you head is mine!!!
Posts: 21
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Post by masayuki on Apr 23, 2005 16:51:38 GMT -5
i think the most overated person is um.... zhou yu because in the game he is made out to be zhuge's equal...... but in the book the most overated is um...... idk but the most underated is zhang fei
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