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Post by boogiepopmeup on Jul 10, 2004 1:18:56 GMT -5
who would you say is the most overrated person of the 3k era?
right now i say zhuge liang is, i'll expand once i've organized my thoughts.
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Post by Iain on Jul 10, 2004 1:34:23 GMT -5
Aww did we get beat up at SosZ again, all those Kongming lovers getting you down? Hey i know at least Chibichan will agree with you there about Zhuge, and novel version, yes he was quite mighty, he seemed to predict events with uncanny sight (Wei Yan) and the entire Chi Bi affair was his hey day really, without Zhuge Cao Cao would have wiped out Wu.
Great thinkers in the books are often revered though, Sima yi was highly intellegent too, he had a few predictions come true as well, and Chen Gong seemed to know more about everything going on around Lu Bu than anyone, and what about Guo Jia, a great loss at an early age, he predicted exactly what would happen to Yuans kids that ran.
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Post by boogiepopmeup on Jul 10, 2004 1:47:41 GMT -5
no, the kongming lovers there never seem to feel they have to defend their viewpoint. and they haven't beaten my latest argument up........yet.
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Post by Iain on Jul 10, 2004 4:02:19 GMT -5
no, the kongming lovers there never seem to feel they have to defend their viewpoint. and they haven't beaten my latest argument up........yet. Stick to your guns Nate, I am currently having yet another pointless debate with a rather pointless person. Some people wouldnt recognise the facts if they fell over them!!
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Post by boogiepopmeup on Jul 11, 2004 0:09:05 GMT -5
^ya i saw that stuff and decided to stay away
anyway, reasons why kongming is overrated:
chi bi: most people try to credit him over the people who did much more, zhou yu deserves much more credit.
the whole 'he created shu, shu wouldn't exist' no! zhang song was the one who proposed the occupation of shu, and it was seconded by pang tong. plus the invasion can be credited just as much to fa zheng, etc.
it seems like kongming, when presented with anyone that was a real challenge, instead of using strategy on the field, he'd use tricks and head games, not a very good strategist. ex: zhou yu, jiang wei, lu xun, sima yi.
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Post by Delacroix on Jul 11, 2004 8:25:38 GMT -5
arrr someone who shares my hatred of Kongming I thought I was all alone. Everyone seems to worship the ground Kongming pukes on.
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Post by Sleipner on Jul 11, 2004 9:50:58 GMT -5
I'm no big Zhuge fan but i firmly believe he was the best strategist. I can understand why some would dislike his personna in the book, but that doesn't make him the most overrated. Overrated means their abilities where held in higher regard then they should have been, even if zhuge wasn't the best he was still a very good strategist - meaning he was only slightly overrated - but not enough to consider him the most overrated. The point of chi bi shows how zhou yu should have gained more credit. But that doesn't deter from what zhuge done - perhaps we should call zhou yu the most underrated? When Zhuge joined Liu Bei they were a small force fleeing from Cao Cao. Within 20 years Shu was formed and able to compete equally with Wei and Wu. Zhuge played a pivotal part of this and without him shu would not have been formed - he was the main contributor to shu's success.
The most overrated trait would have to be liu bei's virtue. He was not as kind as forgiving as the book makes out and i don't see how people can deem liu bei a man of the people.
(btw, sorry for the silly question, but how you do you quote small sections?)
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Post by Shikanosuke on Jul 11, 2004 10:55:58 GMT -5
I'm and extremely big (as far as strategists go) fan of kongming, but I will not say that the book does not exagerate his skill.
I'm still thiking on who was the most overrated.
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Post by Sky Scorcher on Jul 11, 2004 15:25:00 GMT -5
Thats just outright stupid. Tricks are a essence of strategy and war tactics. If Zhuge wasn't good, then how would he have accomplished the things he did? Kongming is slightly overrated, but he isn't "not a very good strategist." His plan to attack Xu Chang and Luo Yang from Chang An and Xiang Yang was flawless in its concept.
The most overrated person, is Liu Bei, because the book makes him seem like he can't do no wrong, when in fact he did many wrong and unrightous things.
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Post by Sky Scorcher on Jul 11, 2004 15:26:43 GMT -5
On the 2nd row of buttons, left of the last one on the right.
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Post by boogiepopmeup on Jul 11, 2004 23:08:11 GMT -5
how can u say that? it was pang tong and zhang song that proposed the occupation of shu. becuz he had such great generals to do whatever he wanted.
then how come whenever he encounters anyone who is of any real challenge, he can't beat them on the field?
and what came of it?
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Post by SteelDragon on Jul 12, 2004 4:05:41 GMT -5
Lu Bu! Lu Bu! Lu Bu! Im almost Sick of hearing this Guy get more Praise then he has Earned! It seems the only reason he has a fan base is because of the Game and the Book turned him into an Unstopible Killing Machine! the Guy was just a General, a Human Being even! he was only Feared cuz of his huge Ego imo. i wont doubt the good stuff Lu Bu did (like killing Dong Zhuo) but really, anything else he did was just due to his own Foolishness and Ego again.
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Post by Sleipner on Jul 12, 2004 6:29:00 GMT -5
They may have proposed the occupation of Shu, but zhuge greatly helped to fulfill the occupation. Zhuge ensured Liu Bei's forces were still alive to be able to occupy Shu - zhuge suggested allying with Wu and oversaw the alliance whilst he also postioned his troops well at chi bi to ensure Cao Cao suffered a heavy defeat so liu bei's forces would not be so pressured in the next several years.
When did zhuge lose? some of the battles may have gone the enemies way but in the end did zhuge actually lose a tactical battle. The northern campaigns didn't succeed but there is a difference between losing and having to retreat for some purpose. The reasons zhuge had to retreat was not because his strategic ability but more because his character had faults - such as trusting the wrong people and extreme loyality to Liu Bei. Very often it was the defending strategist that won when any major strategists competed against each other.
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Post by Sky Scorcher on Jul 12, 2004 12:34:39 GMT -5
It failed only because the fall of Jing, and the lack of support after the plan, since the three brothers were already dead when half of the plan was being executed. And what defines a good strategist to you? You say the Kongming is a horrible strategist, when his name is all over Chinese history, war, and politics. He had to do something to earn that great of a name, and his lifelong achievements kept his name going, besides the one timers Lu Xun and Zhou Yu, which their fame was only circulated by one battle or event. Zhuge had many, and those made him great.
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Post by Shikanosuke on Jul 12, 2004 17:20:02 GMT -5
It failed only because the fall of Jing, and the lack of support after the plan, since the three brothers were already dead when half of the plan was being executed. And what defines a good strategist to you? You say the Kongming is a horrible strategist, when his name is all over Chinese history, war, and politics. He had to do something to earn that great of a name, and his lifelong achievements kept his name going, besides the one timers Lu Xun and Zhou Yu, which their fame was only circulated by one battle or event. Zhuge had many, and those made him great. Indeed. If Zhuge Liang was not a good strategist who was? Besides Gua Jia.
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