TigerLord
Fighter
Strength of the Inferno
Posts: 94
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Post by TigerLord on Jan 29, 2004 22:03:14 GMT -5
I agree with that description on Sun Quan. I do not feel he was a poor ruler at all.
As for Dian Wei I'm sorry you didn't address my agruments. I'm not saying your wrong on this but I don't remember Liu Bei yelling at Zhou Yun I thought he was estatic to see him and then threw the baby down.
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Post by boogiepopmeup on Jan 29, 2004 22:24:23 GMT -5
1st of all i did address ur arguments saying that it's just how I SEE IT....i will not sit here and argue over opinions....... secondly here's ur proof of liu bei getting mad at zilong
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Post by boogiepopmeup on Jan 30, 2004 14:47:12 GMT -5
ok now i feel like arguing.............1st of all this has nothing 2 do with loyalty. besides dian wei's actions cannot be compared 2 zhao yun's as u say. dian wei was acting out of duty. cao cao was relying on dian wei 2 hold the gate, another reason why i don' see it so much as bravery but loyalty. no one ordered zhao yun 2 go and risk his life, not 4 his lord, but 4 his lord's family. let's see, another reason why this can't compare is if dian wei had survived, it would not have made much difference. he was merely a bodyguard and that's all. and how dare u compare guan yu's allowing cao cao escape to this?? guan yu was repaying a debt, he wasn't so drunk off his mind that he abandoned his lord in a burning castle (cao cao yells 4 dian wei but he's so drunk he continues sleeping).
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The Coming Evil
Fighter
Hated by Many.... Love by few.... Respected by all
Posts: 113
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Post by The Coming Evil on Jan 30, 2004 15:31:39 GMT -5
ok now i feel like arguing.............1st of all this has nothing 2 do with loyalty. besides dian wei's actions cannot be compared 2 zhao yun's as u say. dian wei was acting out of duty. cao cao was relying on dian wei 2 hold the gate, another reason why i don' see it so much as bravery but loyalty. no one ordered zhao yun 2 go and risk his life, not 4 his lord, but 4 his lord's family. let's see, another reason why this can't compare is if dian wei had survived, it would not have made much difference. he was merely a bodyguard and that's all. and how dare u compare guan yu's allowing cao cao escape to this?? guan yu was repaying a debt, he wasn't so drunk off his mind that he abandoned his lord in a burning castle (cao cao yells 4 dian wei but he's so drunk he continues sleeping). u talk bout Dian wei being a drunk yeah he was probly intoxicated but he still manage to Hold off a whole army with his weapon n armor stolen If u talkin about real drunks Zhang Fei Was a real drunk He pass out n got butchered by his own men n u cant say Dian Wei Was nothing but a feeble BodyGuard He scared off over 10,000 of Lubu Forces n the reason y Hu che re got him trick him because they were scared of him Zhao Yun has his moments yah he risk his life for liu Chan but Dian Wei gave his lif for cao cao and maybe Cao Cao Ask him to hold of the army but still it takes alot of courage to stand alone against a whole army n U know if a guy Like Cao Cao Showed sympathy to dian wei u can tell he was a brave n couragious man
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TigerLord
Fighter
Strength of the Inferno
Posts: 94
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Post by TigerLord on Jan 30, 2004 15:54:14 GMT -5
ok now i feel like arguing.............1st of all this has nothing 2 do with loyalty. besides dian wei's actions cannot be compared 2 zhao yun's as u say. dian wei was acting out of duty. cao cao was relying on dian wei 2 hold the gate, another reason why i don' see it so much as bravery but loyalty. no one ordered zhao yun 2 go and risk his life, not 4 his lord, but 4 his lord's family. let's see, another reason why this can't compare is if dian wei had survived, it would not have made much difference. he was merely a bodyguard and that's all. and how dare u compare guan yu's allowing cao cao escape to this?? guan yu was repaying a debt, he wasn't so drunk off his mind that he abandoned his lord in a burning castle (cao cao yells 4 dian wei but he's so drunk he continues sleeping). Well I'm still not sure how you can compare Dian Wei to a comman drunk brawler as was what my question was not on how to compare Zhou Yun to Dian Wei. As far as Guan Yu he may have been a incredible general but I can question what I want about his decisions. In my opinion Guan Yu's debt was already paid off with the services he rendered to Cao Cao in his bouts against Yuan Shao. As for the castle incident I agree that it was a grave mistake on Dian Wei's part, however, how about we talk about the situation at hand rather than shift it off to another? We're discussing how Dian Wei acted and died in the raid on Cao Cao's camp. As for duty vs. loyalty there is little difference. At that time loyalty and duty went hand in hand and they were prized over all other traits.
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Post by Iain on Jan 30, 2004 20:18:29 GMT -5
n u cant say Dian Wei Was nothing but a feeble BodyGuard He scared off over 10,000 of Lubu Forces Sorry but where in the books does it state that Dian Wei scared off 10,000 men, I cant quite remember that bit. Well we really have no idea if Dian Wei held off an entire army or just a few archers history does not really inform us of the numbers that were upon Dian Wei, and all that stuff about him grabbing bodies and using them as weapons is really just a bit of dramatic storytelling by Luo GuanZhong.
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Post by boogiepopmeup on Jan 30, 2004 22:14:20 GMT -5
i never said dian wei was nothing but a drunk all the time, JUST AT THAT MOMENT! if u wanna talk about zhang fei being nothing more than a drunk u had best educate urself. zhang fei scared just as many, if not more soldiers, than dian wei did:
and i'd like 2 see some proof of dian wei scaring all of lu bu's troops... and what do u mean by zhao yun has his moments? dian wei doesn't have many.
and uh i wasn't comparing duty and loyalty, i said this had nothing 2 do with that. this is about bravery.
AND UR THE ONE THAT BROUGHT UP GUAN YU WHICH HAD NOTHING 2 DO WITH THIS DISCUSSION, YET NOW U SAY WE SHOULD TALK ABOUT THE SITUATION AT HAND!!!! maybe u should be less ignorant about ur own posts.
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TigerLord
Fighter
Strength of the Inferno
Posts: 94
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Post by TigerLord on Feb 4, 2004 21:26:05 GMT -5
i never said dian wei was nothing but a drunk all the time, JUST AT THAT MOMENT! if u wanna talk about zhang fei being nothing more than a drunk u had best educate urself. zhang fei scared just as many, if not more soldiers, than dian wei did: and i'd like 2 see some proof of dian wei scaring all of lu bu's troops... and what do u mean by zhao yun has his moments? dian wei doesn't have many. and uh i wasn't comparing duty and loyalty, i said this had nothing 2 do with that. this is about bravery. AND UR THE ONE THAT BROUGHT UP GUAN YU WHICH HAD NOTHING 2 DO WITH THIS DISCUSSION, YET NOW U SAY WE SHOULD TALK ABOUT THE SITUATION AT HAND!!!! maybe u should be less ignorant about ur own posts. Perhaps you should be less caustic and quick to anger, its not healthy nor am I here to yell at you or anyone.
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Post by Chibichan on Feb 4, 2004 23:23:36 GMT -5
GOOD GOD, people!!!! Chill out! This is too out of hand!!!
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Post by Iain on Feb 4, 2004 23:27:52 GMT -5
Healthy debateing is welcomed here but we should stay focused on the topics here and not put down peoples personal views. This is not a warning, just a suggestion that we can still have heated discussion without personal attacks...please.
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Post by boogiepopmeup on Feb 5, 2004 22:31:38 GMT -5
fine: dian wei was acting out of duty. he never thought about it, he just rushed to do what he did, like people who run 2 a car accident 2 pull people out of the car. there's no descision making. just like dian wei's case. zhao yun on the other hand made the conscious decision 2 ride into the depths of cao's forces to retrieve his master's child, therefor acting bravely.
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TigerLord
Fighter
Strength of the Inferno
Posts: 94
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Post by TigerLord on Feb 6, 2004 8:19:45 GMT -5
fine: dian wei was acting out of duty. he never thought about it, he just rushed to do what he did, like people who run 2 a car accident 2 pull people out of the car. there's no descision making. just like dian wei's case. zhao yun on the other hand made the conscious decision 2 ride into the depths of cao's forces to retrieve his master's child, therefor acting bravely. I disagree. I think Dian Wei was mostly concious of what he was doing (even though also intoxicated) and did not regret it.
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Post by boogiepopmeup on Feb 6, 2004 9:58:09 GMT -5
just now saying that i dunno what saying this was attempting 2 accomplish. all it does 4 me is show me how childish u r when u ran out of points and just personally attacked me because i corrected something u said. who's saying i was angry, maybe i just wanted u 2 see it. in my opinion ignorance is a greater flaw, and u seem 2 be filled with it.
anyway back 2 dian wei. i think dian wei was just trying 2 save his own skin, since he would have been punished 4 getting drunk and abandoning his post. i see this as cowardly. that is if he was all there when he did this. anyway, my opinion stands that dian wei was not brave when he did this, just doing his duty. he probably wanted to flee, but his sense of duty kept him there. no bravery in his case. on the other hand, it was not zhao yun's duty nor responsibility 2 guard his lord's family. everyone else was fleeing, and even tell zhao yun 2 flee himself, but zhao yun takes it upon himself 2 risk his own life 4 the sake of another. no one ordered him 2 do that. zhao yun's act is bravery at it's best.
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TigerLord
Fighter
Strength of the Inferno
Posts: 94
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Post by TigerLord on Feb 6, 2004 17:35:02 GMT -5
just now saying that i dunno what saying this was attempting 2 accomplish. all it does 4 me is show me how childish u r when u ran out of points and just personally attacked me because i corrected something u said. who's saying i was angry, maybe i just wanted u 2 see it. in my opinion ignorance is a greater flaw, and u seem 2 be filled with it. anyway back 2 dian wei. i think dian wei was just trying 2 save his own skin, since he would have been punished 4 getting drunk and abandoning his post. i see this as cowardly. that is if he was all there when he did this. anyway, my opinion stands that dian wei was not brave when he did this, just doing his duty. he probably wanted to flee, but his sense of duty kept him there. no bravery in his case. on the other hand, it was not zhao yun's duty nor responsibility 2 guard his lord's family. everyone else was fleeing, and even tell zhao yun 2 flee himself, but zhao yun takes it upon himself 2 risk his own life 4 the sake of another. no one ordered him 2 do that. zhao yun's act is bravery at it's best. First of all I take offense to you claiming I am ignorant. That is a blatent insult that has absolutely nothing to do with this conversation. I'm also not sure why my disagreeing with your views makes me ignorant. THAT is childish. I'd like to know where I personally insulted you, and when you show me proof of that I will promptly apoligize. Furthermore about Guan Yu, I was not incorrect I was simply stating my opinion, as what most of what you have said is opinion. We have opinions that doesn't mean one is correct or the other incorrect. This is the second post you've placed about me being ignorant (which is off-subject) and I don't appreciate it. I have made no posts about you being offensive, rude, or egotistical. If Ian believes me to be ignorant or my knowledge not adequate to discuss in this forum I'll glady leave.
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Post by Sky Scorcher on Feb 6, 2004 17:45:03 GMT -5
Well, both of you are foolish if you are going to fight over something as stupid as this.
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