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Post by Chibichan on Jan 4, 2004 18:16:00 GMT -5
True, but Wei Yan can't be compared to Lu Bu... I'm thinking that Wei Yan felt he was with the wrong master to begin with and killed the dude to save Huang Zhong. Sure, looking at it through Zhuge Liang's pov it could have been considered a traitorous act, even if he did it to join the right person, you could be suspicious.
But Wei Yan's betrayal of Shu was half his own fault, for deciding to do such a thing, and half of it was Zhuge Liang's fault who edged it on. Then again I hate Zhuge Liang, so, yeah, I'm bias.
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Post by boogiepopmeup on Jan 5, 2004 0:10:51 GMT -5
*not the biggest zhuge fan either* if kongming was really smart he woulda let wei yan do what he wanted and let him get killed that way. ^_^
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Post by Chibichan on Jan 5, 2004 8:25:42 GMT -5
Really... but the guy got his kicks out of messing with Wei Yan. I know it... Zhuge Liang is really some sort of cruel beast that pulls the wings off of butterflies and does cruel, harsh things to make everyone else look stupid! What a mean man! And all this time we've been living under this false reasoning that he was the good guy in all of this... *domo's Zhuge Liang* BTW, if you can't tell I'm joking, then you and Wei Yan have something in common at this moment...
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TigerLord
Fighter
Strength of the Inferno
Posts: 94
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Post by TigerLord on Jan 5, 2004 14:58:39 GMT -5
*not the biggest zhuge fan either* if kongming was really smart he woulda let wei yan do what he wanted and let him get killed that way. ^_^ I must disagree. Zhuge Liang's retreat was tactical. Wei Yan was courageous, as Zhuge Liang himself said numerous times for it was the only reason he kept him around, but he was never careful and always reckless. Had the Kongming let Wei Yan take his men into battle against the strong defenses of Sima Yi, not only would he have been lost but all of his men under his command. Futhermore, it would have weakend the Shu morale and may have even hurt their retreat. Zhuge Liang predicted events well, as he did with Wei Yan.
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Post by boogiepopmeup on Jan 5, 2004 18:49:35 GMT -5
i think wei yan rebelling had ea gr8r effect on morale than had he died in battle. the rest of the army would have retreated while he fought anyway.
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TigerLord
Fighter
Strength of the Inferno
Posts: 94
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Post by TigerLord on Jan 5, 2004 20:30:19 GMT -5
i think wei yan rebelling had ea gr8r effect on morale than had he died in battle. the rest of the army would have retreated while he fought anyway. Your correct it did have a effect on the morale, however, they were in safe distance when that occured...just as Zhuge Liang predicted.
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Post by Chibichan on Jan 6, 2004 18:30:39 GMT -5
Predicted because he set it up...
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TigerLord
Fighter
Strength of the Inferno
Posts: 94
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Post by TigerLord on Jan 6, 2004 23:52:27 GMT -5
Predicted because he set it up... Speaking of Wei Yan or the retreat?
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Post by Chibichan on Jan 7, 2004 4:41:35 GMT -5
Wei Yan's betrayal actually... Zhuge Liang predicted partially because he set it up in a way. Granted, it was probably best for Shu (even if it meant killing off one of their last generals) that Zhuge Liang probe Wei Yan into a rebellion, but still, from the very start Zhuge Liang's distrust fueled Wei Yan's rebellious nature.
So both men are at some fault for Wei Yan's betrayal... can't blame it on Zhuge Liang completely because it was Wei Yan's final decision on rather he was going to do it or not.
I'm probably not making any sense at all, am I?
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TigerLord
Fighter
Strength of the Inferno
Posts: 94
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Post by TigerLord on Jan 7, 2004 9:06:33 GMT -5
Wei Yan's betrayal actually... Zhuge Liang predicted partially because he set it up in a way. Granted, it was probably best for Shu (even if it meant killing off one of their last generals) that Zhuge Liang probe Wei Yan into a rebellion, but still, from the very start Zhuge Liang's distrust fueled Wei Yan's rebellious nature. So both men are at some fault for Wei Yan's betrayal... can't blame it on Zhuge Liang completely because it was Wei Yan's final decision on rather he was going to do it or not. I'm probably not making any sense at all, am I? I understand your logic. However, I think Zhuge Liang's mistrust was somewhat justified. He distrusted him from witnessing him twice betray his benefactor (or whatever he was to Wei Yan). Wei Yan was an incredible and valiant warrior warrior, in his campaigns against Shu he almos lost his life because of his arrogance and reckless behavior. You are right when you say that Zhuge Liang probably knew that if he placed the other general (cant remember his name) at Wu Zhang Plains in charge of the retreat that Wei Yan would retreat, and in that sense he did set up his betrayal, but Wei Yan being the ambitious and contemptous man he is stayed true to his nature and rebelled. Zhuge Liang thought of Shu first.
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Post by Chibichan on Jan 7, 2004 22:11:08 GMT -5
Still, looking at these facts, though Zhuge Liang did it for Shu (which was going to perish anyway, rather Wei Yan betrayed them or not, because let's face is. The top officers at the time were Jiang Wei, Wei Yan, and Ma Dai... do you really think there's a slight chance for them after Zhuge Liang dies? No... they were screwed the minutes Zhuge Liang died). Zhuge Liang set up Wei Yan's betrayal after his death because if he had killed Wei Yan before his death (say, if he allowed Jiang Wei to slay Wei Yan the second he knocked over the lamp), then it would have made him look bad, to kill a major general before a major battle. He did it after to make himself look 'good'; Luo Guanzhong emphasized this because he wanted the reader to think 'wow, Zhuge Liang is the greatest mind in the history of the world, he r0xx0rs my b0x0rs LOLOLONEONEONEONEONE'. Though on the surface, Zhuge Liang did it for Shu, he knew that Shu was going to crumble anyways, regardless of Wei Yan's death and betrayal (he probably knew about Liu Shan getting corrupted too). Loyal, yes, however, for every action there is a reaction and Zhuge Liang did a wrong deed to justify a right deed.
*confuses herself* I think I've gone cross-eyed... what's this topic about again?
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Post by boogiepopmeup on Jan 7, 2004 22:14:48 GMT -5
Still, looking at these facts, though Zhuge Liang did it for Shu (which was going to perish anyway, rather Wei Yan betrayed them or not, because let's face is. The top officers at the time were Jiang Wei, Wei Yan, and Ma Dai... do you really think there's a slight chance for them after Zhuge Liang dies? No... they were screwed the minutes Zhuge Liang died). Zhuge Liang set up Wei Yan's betrayal after his death because if he had killed Wei Yan before his death (say, if he allowed Jiang Wei to slay Wei Yan the second he knocked over the lamp), then it would have made him look bad, to kill a major general before a major battle. He did it after to make himself look 'good'; Luo Guanzhong emphasized this because he wanted the reader to think 'wow, Zhuge Liang is the greatest mind in the history of the world, he r0xx0rs my b0x0rs LOLOLONEONEONEONEONE'. Though on the surface, Zhuge Liang did it for Shu, he knew that Shu was going to crumble anyways, regardless of Wei Yan's death and betrayal (he probably knew about Liu Shan getting corrupted too). Loyal, yes, however, for every action there is a reaction and Zhuge Liang did a wrong deed to justify a right deed. *confuses herself* I think I've gone cross-eyed... what's this topic about again? nah there was hope 4 shu after zhuge, but liu chan made it impossible
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Post by Chibichan on Jan 7, 2004 22:17:21 GMT -5
If there was hope, I sure as hell didn't see any when reading the book. There were times where hope seemed to be rising, but, as you said, Liu Shan(Chan, whatever) did make it impossible, however, he felt more trust to Zhuge Liang than to Jiang Wei.
When Zhuge Liang died, the 'hope' died because Liu Shan didn't trust Jiang Wei and kept calling him back and such.
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Post by boogiepopmeup on Jan 7, 2004 22:19:58 GMT -5
When Zhuge Liang died, the 'hope' died because Liu Shan didn't trust Jiang Wei and kept calling him back and such. ya if jiang wei had been supported shu could have survived but alas he was not
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Post by Chibichan on Jan 7, 2004 22:26:10 GMT -5
Doesn't it make you want to get a time machine to go BACK in time and slap the living crap out of him, don't it? Oh... I so wish I could do that; not change history or anything, but jsut go back and beat him up a few good times, thne leave.
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