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Post by boogiepopmeup on Jan 7, 2004 22:29:44 GMT -5
nah i'd kill 'im and huang hao. then put one of liu bei's other kids in charge. they would probably do a better job than chan........i've lost count at how many times i've cursed out liu chan 4 using jiang wei like a yo yo
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Post by Iain on Jan 7, 2004 22:53:43 GMT -5
Liu Chan used Zhuge Liang as a yo yo too, he called him back several times too, annoying person.
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TigerLord
Fighter
Strength of the Inferno
Posts: 94
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Post by TigerLord on Jan 8, 2004 0:04:48 GMT -5
Still, looking at these facts, though Zhuge Liang did it for Shu (which was going to perish anyway, rather Wei Yan betrayed them or not, because let's face is. The top officers at the time were Jiang Wei, Wei Yan, and Ma Dai... do you really think there's a slight chance for them after Zhuge Liang dies? No... they were screwed the minutes Zhuge Liang died). Zhuge Liang set up Wei Yan's betrayal after his death because if he had killed Wei Yan before his death (say, if he allowed Jiang Wei to slay Wei Yan the second he knocked over the lamp), then it would have made him look bad, to kill a major general before a major battle. He did it after to make himself look 'good'; Luo Guanzhong emphasized this because he wanted the reader to think 'wow, Zhuge Liang is the greatest mind in the history of the world, he r0xx0rs my b0x0rs LOLOLONEONEONEONEONE'. Though on the surface, Zhuge Liang did it for Shu, he knew that Shu was going to crumble anyways, regardless of Wei Yan's death and betrayal (he probably knew about Liu Shan getting corrupted too). Loyal, yes, however, for every action there is a reaction and Zhuge Liang did a wrong deed to justify a right deed. *confuses herself* I think I've gone cross-eyed... what's this topic about again? I'm confused on your last sentence about a wrong deed justifying a right deed. Wei Yan rarely did a rightous deed. We feel for him when he saved Huang Zhong, for it was humane, but especially in those times...to rebel against your lord was dishonourable just as Zhuge Liang mentioned. The term 'set up' carries a murderous connation with it. Zhuge Liang knew that Wei Yan would revolt after his death. He knew that he would not be best fitted for the position he desired. He gave it to the better fit general, Wei Yan rebelled (again) and he was put down. I'm trying to find the 'wrong' in this? He was doing his job as a strategist/prime minister. As for the hope of Shu after his death, though the outlook lay grim, I think Shu had if not the chance to defeat Wei, at least the chance to exist and continue to be part of the Three kindom tripod.
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Post by boogiepopmeup on Jan 8, 2004 2:36:16 GMT -5
no no there was no basis 4 zhuge's distrust of wei yan. if everyone who betrayed a lord was seen with such distrust, next 2 no one would have a lord.
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Post by Chibichan on Jan 8, 2004 3:44:35 GMT -5
So, Wei Yan kills his lord in order to 1) save Huang Zhong, 2) show Liu Bei that he's willing to join him and proof that he was going to be loyal to him, and 3) probably because he never liked the guy anyway. Granted, reason 1 and 2 are for the good of others and the 3rd reason is for himself. But, by doing this, it earns him distrust from Zhuge Liang...
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TigerLord
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Strength of the Inferno
Posts: 94
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Post by TigerLord on Jan 8, 2004 9:00:53 GMT -5
So, Wei Yan kills his lord in order to 1) save Huang Zhong, 2) show Liu Bei that he's willing to join him and proof that he was going to be loyal to him, and 3) probably because he never liked the guy anyway. Granted, reason 1 and 2 are for the good of others and the 3rd reason is for himself. But, by doing this, it earns him distrust from Zhuge Liang... Though we may look at them and find every reason in the world to trust him, things were different then than they are now. In the 3k era loyalty to your lord was prized and admired. If Wei Yan could slay twice his benefactor when he thought he was making and injust act then why could he not do the same to Liu Bei? Zhuge Liang saw this. He looked at what the possibilites were for this man who threw himself at him by betraying his lord was capabale of. You must put in the context of the time not to mention just the fact that you can't just blindly accept generals into your ranks, especially ones who murder their lords! You show yourself through actions, what did Wei Yan's actions suggest? Well though I know you all will say 'well he was a good man he saved Huang Zhong!' or 'he knew Liu Bei to the better ruler or more just ruler'. Thats not the only ways to look at it, especially not from Kongming's eyes. Wei Yan revolted twice. Zhuge Liang saw this. And though Liang kept Wei Yan, and used him in the field, he revolted a third time. Though I really do like Wei Yan he is lucky he wasn't slaughtered when he went to gain fame for himself by trying to steal the light from Huang Zhong or when he knocked over the lamp.
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Post by boogiepopmeup on Jan 8, 2004 10:43:52 GMT -5
man if wei yan didn't help huang zhong u'd be complaining about that. u ask what wei yan's actions suggest and i think in liu bei's eyse it would be seen as loyalty to a friend.
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TigerLord
Fighter
Strength of the Inferno
Posts: 94
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Post by TigerLord on Jan 8, 2004 11:43:18 GMT -5
man if wei yan didn't help huang zhong u'd be complaining about that. u ask what wei yan's actions suggest and i think in liu bei's eyse it would be seen as loyalty to a friend. If Wei Yan hadn't saved Huang Zhong I would not complain. I respect Huang Zhong. Nonetheless, you never addressed what I said about the context of the time. Liu Bei saw a valiant and ferocious warrior, not a loyal servant.
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Post by boogiepopmeup on Jan 8, 2004 14:32:06 GMT -5
pish posh here r a few examples: zhao yun up and leaving gongsun zan 4 liu bei just cuz he didn't see him as the right lord 4 him, was there any distrust of him? taishi ci being trusted by sun ce when everyone else doubted his return. zhang liao followed lu bu in all his traitorous acts, yet he became one of cao cao's most trusted.
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Post by Sky Scorcher on Jan 8, 2004 21:20:43 GMT -5
Well, treachery was all too common back then. But then again, the rulers benefited in the end. But Wei Yan is still questionable...
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TigerLord
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Strength of the Inferno
Posts: 94
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Post by TigerLord on Jan 9, 2004 13:10:17 GMT -5
pish posh here r a few examples: zhao yun up and leaving gongsun zan 4 liu bei just cuz he didn't see him as the right lord 4 him, was there any distrust of him? taishi ci being trusted by sun ce when everyone else doubted his return. zhang liao followed lu bu in all his traitorous acts, yet he became one of cao cao's most trusted. Actually there is sort of a difference. Zhou Yun did not leave Gongsun Zan for Liu Bei. Zhou Yun deserted Gongsun Zan and after awhile happend upon Liu Bei. Liu Bei had already known Yun and had already wanted to have him by his side unlike Wei Yan. and Zhang Liao defected after Lu Bu's defeat, as many officers do when their lords are vanquished. As for Taishi Ci, thats a good example, but Wei Yan and Taishi Ci were different characters, I think even Liu Bei would have agreed on that.
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Post by boogiepopmeup on Jan 9, 2004 15:11:44 GMT -5
well wei yan did desert after his lord was vanquished, he was just the one that did the vanquishing. 'Liu Bei was generous toward the veteran leader, who had come under his banner, and was grateful for the service of Wei Yan. He made both of them Van Leaders.' liu bei trusted wei yan
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Post by Sky Scorcher on Jan 9, 2004 21:47:54 GMT -5
well wei yan did desert after his lord was vanquished, he was just the one that did the vanquishing. 'Liu Bei was generous toward the veteran leader, who had come under his banner, and was grateful for the service of Wei Yan. He made both of them Van Leaders.' liu bei trusted wei yan But Kongming didn't.
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Post by Iain on Jan 9, 2004 22:04:02 GMT -5
Thats right Zhuge Liang wanted to put Wei Yan to death as soon as he saw him. How could you trust a warrior who turned on his old master so quickly?
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TigerLord
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Strength of the Inferno
Posts: 94
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Post by TigerLord on Jan 9, 2004 23:24:06 GMT -5
Thats right Zhuge Liang wanted to put Wei Yan to death as soon as he saw him. How could you trust a warrior who turned on his old master so quickly? Exactly. Your right boogie, Wei Yan did offer his services after his lord had been slain, but he was the murderer. He was the unloyal and treacherous soul. Now I don't think Wei Yan to be an evil person don't get me wrong. I really like Wei Yan. But you have to look at the facts.
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