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Post by Sky Scorcher on Jan 10, 2004 0:02:56 GMT -5
And another case where a character was portrayed in DW wrong. I doubt he spun on his back with a double-voulge it battles, though.
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Post by boogiepopmeup on Jan 10, 2004 2:25:51 GMT -5
Exactly. Your right boogie, Wei Yan did offer his services after his lord had been slain, but he was the murderer. He was the unloyal and treacherous soul. Now I don't think Wei Yan to be an evil person don't get me wrong. I really like Wei Yan. But you have to look at the facts. how can u call a man that betrayed his lord so that he could stay LOYAL to a friend, disloyal? wei yan saw that his lord was doing a wrong and stopped him from doing it. 2 more quotes by liu bei that showed he trusted and loved wei yan. why couldn't stubborn zhuge accept him as liu did? 'But Liu Bei would stop this contest and said, "I have need of both of you in the task that lies before me. When two tigers fight, one is sure to lose; and the loss of either of you is more than I could bear. Be reconciled and quarrel no more." "If I treat humans with kindness and justice, they will not betray my trust."
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Post by SteelDragon on Jan 10, 2004 2:31:45 GMT -5
how can u call a man that betrayed his lord so that he could stay LOYAL to a friend, disloyal? wei yan saw that his lord was doing a wrong and stopped him from doing it. Loyalty can be messared diffrently by diffrent people, i think Wei Yai's act to save Huang Zhong was very loyal, in the end he choose his Friend over his lord, and i cannont lie, if i saw one of my friends in the same possition i whould'nt hessatate to cut down my lord to save my best friend. so its a matter of personally really, whould u remain more loyal to your King or to your Best friend?
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Post by Iain on Jan 10, 2004 3:13:48 GMT -5
That is true that Wei Yan's lord treated him badly and gave him no title or rank, but perhaps it was Wei Yan's personality that got in the way of his promotion, he may have been just full of bluster to some.
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TigerLord
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Post by TigerLord on Jan 10, 2004 3:29:01 GMT -5
Well once again I think there comes in again a time period difference. We have no problem identifying with Wei Yan's actions on a friend for friend level. But loyalty to your lord was supposed to be above all, his word law. So your saying he should have been trusted by Liu Bei because he was loyal to his friend but yet not his lord? So perhaps if Liu Bei wanted to execute Zhou Yun for a personal reason...Wei Yan might intervene, which would be insubordination...a threat to Liu Bei. As his strategist Zhuge Liang saw this threat.
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Post by Chibichan on Jan 10, 2004 3:39:40 GMT -5
Perhaps a friend could be worth more to someone than a lord? True, it shows that they care more for a specific person than another... I don't understand the whole 'protect the leader over your family or friend' thing that they had back then. I live in this day and age, so maybe I CAN'T understand it.
A man has the choice to be loyal to whomever he pleases. Wei Yan was loyal to Huang Zhong, as well as he was loyal to Liu Bei. He was, however, not loyal to Zhuge Liang, which, of course, was a threat.
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TigerLord
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Post by TigerLord on Jan 10, 2004 4:28:32 GMT -5
Perhaps a friend could be worth more to someone than a lord? True, it shows that they care more for a specific person than another... I don't understand the whole 'protect the leader over your family or friend' thing that they had back then. I live in this day and age, so maybe I CAN'T understand it. A man has the choice to be loyal to whomever he pleases. Wei Yan was loyal to Huang Zhong, as well as he was loyal to Liu Bei. He was, however, not loyal to Zhuge Liang, which, of course, was a threat. Well I don't live in that time period. However, I acknowledge, understand, and respect that aspect of culture held then. It was the same with the samurai. Lord and vassal relationship was extremely important. As far as who Wei Yan was loyal to...in my opinion, though I do like Wei Yan, he was loyal to whatever cause he desired. He wasn't loyal to his first two benefactors. He joined Liu Bei with the invasion of Shu. After they acquiesed Shu I don't think Liu Bei and Wei Yan had anymore real contact. Zhuge Liang took him on the Nanman campaign where he did very well. And of course we all know that when Zhuge Liang delegated the command of the army to someone else than Wei Yan, Wei Yan threw a tempertantrum and revolted. He even considered joining Wei....loyalty? Analyzing the 'serving' aspect of the time...when your leader in charge gives command to another officer your not supposed to get jelous and revolt, regardless of what you feel is right.
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Post by Chibichan on Jan 10, 2004 4:53:09 GMT -5
Of course it wasn't his lord that gave him that instructions but a dead guy... that dead guy being Zhuge Liang. Wei Yan figured that Shu was probably going to collapse anyway and now that the guy that was holding him down was dead, he figured that he really deserved a better position. Look at what he did in Shu compared to some others? He probably had more sense to be a Tiger General instead of Ma Chao (imo) and helped Liu Bei gain his land and such...
I still think he had his own justified reasons for betraying Shu, NOT Liu Bei... had Liu Bei been alive, I'm sure that he would not have revolted, but of coure, history is history and I'm sure most of us wish that Liu Shan had died at Chang Ban, but that would never happen, as much as we wanted it to...
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Post by Sky Scorcher on Jan 10, 2004 14:03:01 GMT -5
Well, I agree. Wei Yan believed that he did accomplish many things for Liu Bei. He knew that he wasn't in Zhuge's favor and knew that his own force would eventually throw him out and let him dry. For these reasons, a revolt was justified in some aspects. However, it wasn't in the fact that he didn't stay with "the cause" even after Liu Bei's death at Bai Di. That proves that he wasn't loyal to something that was even bigger than Liu Bei was, the restoration of the Han.
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TigerLord
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Post by TigerLord on Jan 10, 2004 14:16:22 GMT -5
Of course it wasn't his lord that gave him that instructions but a dead guy... that dead guy being Zhuge Liang. Wei Yan figured that Shu was probably going to collapse anyway and now that the guy that was holding him down was dead, he figured that he really deserved a better position. Look at what he did in Shu compared to some others? He probably had more sense to be a Tiger General instead of Ma Chao (imo) and helped Liu Bei gain his land and such... I still think he had his own justified reasons for betraying Shu, NOT Liu Bei... had Liu Bei been alive, I'm sure that he would not have revolted, but of coure, history is history and I'm sure most of us wish that Liu Shan had died at Chang Ban, but that would never happen, as much as we wanted it to... Liu Bei trusted Zhuge Liang with Shu's cause. Zhuge Liang worked the Shu empire on both fronts. He might as well have had as much clout as the emperor. I don't think Wei Yan's revolt was justified. Had he simply focus on aiding Shu instead of his own pride and ambition he could have continued his successful career. But no, just as the "dead guy" predicted he revolted. Its possible that had even Liu Bei been alive he still may have revolted against Zhuge Liang, whos to say? He's done it twice before. Listen Wei Yan was a good man...but he was not loyal to the Shu cause. However I wouldn't consider Yan honorable if he bailed on Shu just because he thought they were going to collapse. And truly I doubt he was smart enough to think that far ahead.
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Post by boogiepopmeup on Jan 10, 2004 15:16:36 GMT -5
NOT LOYAL TO THE SHU CAUSE??????? how can wanting 2 press the attack on wei in order 2 defeat their gr8est enemy disloyal 2 the cause of shu????? and focus on aiding shu? maybe zhuge should've listen more:
'Wei Yan was a member of Zhuge Liang’s inner circle of friends and plays a prominent role in the northern campaigns. Wenchang urges Kongming to strike Chang An directly, however the cautious Kongming decided to maneuver through Longyou instead and did not succeed in capturing any cities. Later many people thought that perhaps Wei Yan’s plan had merit.' from bio @ kongming.net
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TigerLord
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Post by TigerLord on Jan 10, 2004 16:28:56 GMT -5
NOT LOYAL TO THE SHU CAUSE? how can wanting 2 press the attack on wei in order 2 defeat their gr8est enemy disloyal 2 the cause of shu? ? and focus on aiding shu? maybe zhuge should've listen more: 'Wei Yan was a member of Zhuge Liang’s inner circle of friends and plays a prominent role in the northern campaigns. Wenchang urges Kongming to strike Chang An directly, however the cautious Kongming decided to maneuver through Longyou instead and did not succeed in capturing any cities. Later many people thought that perhaps Wei Yan’s plan had merit.' from bio @ kongming.net Yes, not loyal to Shu's cause. How can wanting to attack Shu's greatest enemy at Wu Zhang Plains be not loyal, well because the attack would have utterly failed against Sima Yi's stout defenses. In my opinion Wei Yan's first strategy was probably correct. However, Zhuge Liang didnt choose that strategy and Wei Yan didnt revolt...why..because thats what a loyal subject does? He obeys commands regardless of wether he thinks its militarily sound. Wei Yan was always reckless in battle and there would have been no difference at WuZhang Plains. Had he been loyal he would have been thinking of what would have been best for Shu at the time, and how to carry out the late prime minister's orders because why? thats what a loyal subject does!
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Post by Iain on Jan 10, 2004 16:46:56 GMT -5
Wei Yan did have his ideas for plans turned down by Zhuge Liang a lot, he may have felt snubbed by Zhuge on several occasion, not every general enjoys the treatment Kongmings gives them to inspire them to great deeds.
It was an act of respect to pull back following Zhuge Liangs death, and Wei Yan still only cared for glory and battle at that point unfortunately.
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Post by Chibichan on Jan 10, 2004 18:14:42 GMT -5
After the way Zhuge Liang treated him for so many years, I think it's only human to want something for yourself. He had many accomplishments as well as failures, like all other generals (except book Zhao Yun, who is in fact Jesus Christ). After so many years of working with Shu, Wei Yan figured he deserved more then what he was getting.
And I'm sure that Wei Yan wasn't the ONLY one who had a big ego... big ego syndrome was very common back then with a lot of generals.
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Post by boogiepopmeup on Jan 10, 2004 19:10:40 GMT -5
Yes, not loyal to Shu's cause. How can wanting to attack Shu's greatest enemy at Wu Zhang Plains be not loyal, well because the attack would have utterly failed against Sima Yi's stout defenses. In my opinion Wei Yan's first strategy was probably correct. However, Zhuge Liang didnt choose that strategy and Wei Yan didnt revolt...why..because thats what a loyal subject does? He obeys commands regardless of wether he thinks its militarily sound. Wei Yan was always reckless in battle and there would have been no difference at WuZhang Plains. Had he been loyal he would have been thinking of what would have been best for Shu at the time, and how to carry out the late prime minister's orders because why? thats what a loyal subject does! well then i guess pang tong can be seen as a disloyal wretch since what got him killed was disobeying liu bei, guan yu as well
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