TigerLord
Fighter
Strength of the Inferno
Posts: 94
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Post by TigerLord on Jan 10, 2004 20:15:17 GMT -5
well then i guess pang tong can be seen as a disloyal wretch since what got him killed was disobeying liu bei, guan yu as well Guan Yu's ego got him killed not disobeying Liu Bei. Yet, theres also a difference between the extremeties in simply disobeying and order and attacking your own side. I'm sure it would have been alot less of a deal had Wei Yan simply attacked Wei without permission rather than try to attack them.
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Post by boogiepopmeup on Jan 10, 2004 22:45:46 GMT -5
was not guan yu told 2 yield the territory? i fail 2 see how this is not obeying orders.
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Post by Sky Scorcher on Jan 10, 2004 22:57:29 GMT -5
I'm not sure about it, too. Its a bit confusing.
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Post by Iain on Jan 10, 2004 23:26:01 GMT -5
was not guan yu told 2 yield the territory? i fail 2 see how this is not obeying orders. As I recall Zhuge Liang and Liu Bei left Guan Yu in charge of those provinces, expressily because they didnt want to give them up, even after establishing a Shu territory. That is why they gave poor old Lu Su the run around everytime he got sent from Wu to ask for those 'lent' territories back! Liu Bei I dont think had any intention of returning those prime territorys to Wu and Guan Yu have have just been following his 'brothers' desires.
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Post by boogiepopmeup on Jan 11, 2004 3:22:42 GMT -5
here it is: 'At this point Zhuge Liang prostrated himself weeping at his lord's feet and said, "The Marquis of Wu has seized my brother's family, and he will put them all to death if the land be not given up. Can I remain alive if such a fate befall them? I pray my lord for my sake to give back the region and prevent any breach between my brother and me."
and guan yu's blatent disregard of his 'lord's' orders:
'Guan Yu's countenance changed, and he said, "The oath sworn in the Peach Garden bound me and my brother to support the dynasty of Han. Jingzhou is a portion of their domain, and how can any part be given to another? When a leader is in the field, he receives no orders, not even those of his prince. Although you have brought letters from my brother, yet will I not yield the territories."
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Post by Iain on Jan 11, 2004 4:09:06 GMT -5
Hmm I actually feel that this quote from Zhuge Liang following the death of Liu Qi perhaps better explains the views of Zhuge and Liu Bei on not giving up those prime Jingzhou lands that Wu had such a mean on for... Zhuge Liang sounded pretty adamant there.
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Post by boogiepopmeup on Jan 11, 2004 12:38:44 GMT -5
well mine was from 12 chapters later and clearly shows zhuge BEGGING 4 the return of the territories. regardless of that, guan yu was ordered 2 give up the territroy and still refused. that counts as 2 times guan yu should have been put 2 death, as wei yan was, he is only spared because of his 'brother'
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Post by Sky Scorcher on Jan 11, 2004 13:40:46 GMT -5
But giving up the strategic Jing province would have set the conquest of China back many years. Liu Bei was just too rightous to see that.
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Post by Chibichan on Jan 11, 2004 16:02:54 GMT -5
I thought they only agreed to give one or two districts back to them? I forgot their names, but it seemed pretty fair if Guan Yu would have just gave the two small districts back to Wu and then, just to keep the alliance between them good (and Guan Yu insulting Sun Quan when he refused the marriage proposal wasn't too intellegent either... he could have just said 'No, sorry, not interested' other then mouthing off... at that point, I think Guan Yu deserved anything he got coming to him...)
Some leader of the Tiger Generals (he was the leader, correct?)...
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Post by boogiepopmeup on Jan 11, 2004 16:41:43 GMT -5
three: 'Since things are so, and the Instructor pleads for it, I will return half," said he. "I will give up three territories---Changsha, Lingling, and Guiyang." and yes guan is the leader
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Post by Sky Scorcher on Jan 11, 2004 16:44:19 GMT -5
three: 'Since things are so, and the Instructor pleads for it, I will return half," said he. "I will give up three territories---Changsha, Lingling, and Guiyang." and yes guan is the leader Basically, thats Southern Jing's main cities.
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TigerLord
Fighter
Strength of the Inferno
Posts: 94
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Post by TigerLord on Jan 11, 2004 20:47:14 GMT -5
Ok my argument about Guan Yu's death was not that he was not disobeying orders in general, rather he did not die because of it. Guan Yu died trying to capture a castle while he was away from Jing. Had he simply disobeyed orders and stayed within Jing he would have been fine.
Zhuge Liang would not have let Jing simply be handed over to Wu, thats why they left Guan Yu in charge.
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Post by Sky Scorcher on Jan 12, 2004 0:20:28 GMT -5
And Guan Yu never did regard Wu highly.
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Post by Iain on Jan 12, 2004 0:50:14 GMT -5
three: 'Since things are so, and the Instructor pleads for it, I will return half," said he. "I will give up three territories---Changsha, Lingling, and Guiyang." and yes guan is the leader Yeah but he knew that wouldnt go across well with Guan Yu, if Liu Bei truely wanted give back those territorys he would have transferred Guan Yu elsewhere. He left him in command there because he didnt want to lose that land to Wu.
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Post by boogiepopmeup on Jan 12, 2004 1:00:22 GMT -5
that was liu bei's plan: '"My brother is hasty," said Liu Bei. "It is difficult to argue with him. But return home for the present, and when I have finished my conquest of Hanzhong, I will transfer Guan Yu to another post, and then I may be able to return Jingzhou."' and guan yu would not have been fine. he SHOULD have been put 2 death 4 disobedience of orders, but then liu bei would have interfered, just as he did when zhuge was going 2 kill him 4 letting cao escape
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