TigerLord
Fighter
Strength of the Inferno
Posts: 94
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Post by TigerLord on Mar 9, 2004 7:57:18 GMT -5
so with all that u have listed what makes u so sure wu would be aggressive? all u've shown is that when wu was aggressive, they failed. I just think Wu would have become aggressive had Wei been in such a crisis. Zhou Yu especially was very ambitious and after ChiChiban this is evident but yes he failed. However, with all the events changed around I think he still would have remained ambitious and wanted to attack north. Just my opinion and maybe I'm wrong.
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Post by Iain on Mar 9, 2004 8:57:14 GMT -5
Theres also the fact that Chi Bi probably wouldnt happen with Cao Cao gone and Wei crippled (or warring elsewhere) Wu would enjoy a number of years of steady progression and perhaps even expansion into Jingzhou etc. And with the probable loss of Liu Bei and his brothers would Zhuge Liang still be a hermit at this point? Or would he feel compelled to work for another Kingdom, perhaps with his brother at Wu even. Now theres a nasty thought, the mind of Kongming behind Wu's armies...
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Post by boogiepopmeup on Mar 9, 2004 14:40:25 GMT -5
so yuan shao gets rid of the person that dong zhuo set up and people support him. why would they want to keep someone that the infamous dong zhuo put in power? and if xian was so deserving of the emperor position, why did the chaos begin when he was set up as emperor?
what do u mean stable for years? ur saying that wu would attack now at this time, and wu is only about 2 yrs old. so where are the years of peace and prosperity u speak of? wu would have invaded the north, not been used to the land and been turned back in utter shame and humiliation. now in the book wu hardly even fought until chi bi, which does count as years of peace and prosperity, but did they win in the end? no. did they fail in their attempt to take the north? yes.
as 4 zhuge liang, he was a friend of liu qi, so he prob would have ended up there perhaps
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Post by Morg on Mar 11, 2004 15:09:13 GMT -5
so yuan shao gets rid of the person that dong zhuo set up and people support him. why would they want to keep someone that the infamous dong zhuo put in power? and if xian was so deserving of the emperor position, why did the chaos begin when he was set up as emperor? You don't understand. When Emperor Ling died, he chose Xian as his successor. Yuan Shao by force set up Bian instead of Xian. Therefore, Yuan Shao set up an Emperor of his choice. Later, Dong Zhuo deposed Bian and set up Xian (the rightful heir). Xian wasn't deposed by Yuan Shao, he was deposed by Cao Pi after Cao Cao died. The chaos began long before Dong Zhuo seized power. The Yellow Scarves Rebellion was 5 years before Zhuo came to the capital and there were countless mini-rebellions by other factions before AD 189 too. To get this back to the point. Yuan Shao himself was a rebel against the throne and therefore isn't as you said, "one of the emperor's supporters". what do u mean stable for years? ur saying that wu would attack now at this time, and wu is only about 2 yrs old. so where are the years of peace and prosperity u speak of? They would actually be older than two years. Wu would have been established for about two years before the incident where Cao Cao, Liu Bei and Guan Yu are all killed, so they would have presumably sat back (as they did in the novel and historically) and bided their time while veryone fights over the north. Therefore, Wu would have more than two years. wu would have invaded the north, not been used to the land and been turned back in utter shame and humiliation. Jin's forces were not used to naval combat and had never been inside Wu territory but yet managed to conquer them successfully..... now in the book wu hardly even fought until chi bi, which does count as years of peace and prosperity, but did they win in the end? no. did they fail in their attempt to take the north? yes. Wu failed against Wei which is very different from failing aganst Ma Teng and Yuan Shao, who also fell to Wei.
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Post by Sky Scorcher on Mar 11, 2004 22:27:15 GMT -5
Wu was very stable, but a mass invasion would have destroyed him. Notice how all the major Wu battles put the kingdom and territory on the line.
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Post by Morg on Mar 12, 2004 18:43:37 GMT -5
Wu was very stable, but a mass invasion would have destroyed him. Notice how all the major Wu battles put the kingdom and territory on the line. The only one I can think of that fits your criteria was Chi Bi.
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Post by Sky Scorcher on Mar 12, 2004 19:01:22 GMT -5
He Fei and Yi Ling are other prime examples.
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Post by Iain on Mar 12, 2004 20:23:00 GMT -5
He Fei and Yi Ling are other prime examples. He Fei was really more of a stalemate, it was also Wu attempting to be agressive but many problems seemed to plague the Wu army that massively outnumbered the Wei defenders. Yi Ling saw Wu pushed back but was Liu Bei,s army ever really that near to Sun Quans personal space, even if Lu Xun's fire attack failed Wu would still be very hard to overcome.
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Post by Sky Scorcher on Mar 12, 2004 22:15:20 GMT -5
Still, if they didn't act soon enough, then the Shu army would have invaded anyway. Thats what made Wu a defensive state, though, because they always seemed to be in defensive battles after the conquest of Jing.
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Post by boogiepopmeup on Mar 13, 2004 14:42:25 GMT -5
so why did no one rise up and form a coalition against yuan shao,huh? where was the opposition when yuan shao did this?
time of this incident 198, hmmm...at this time 'wu' is hardly stable fighting w/ liu xun and after that still dealing w/ rebellion within. 197, sun ce was still under yuan shu, till yuan shu proclaimed he was emperor, so um how old is 'wu'? ya they would have failed against a united north under a supported emperor and imperial troops
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Post by Morg on Mar 16, 2004 9:02:47 GMT -5
so why did no one rise up and form a coalition against yuan shao,huh? where was the opposition when yuan shao did this? The fact is that The Han's military were under the command of He Jin and He Jin was the one who got Yuan Shao to put Bian on the throne. No-one could really rebel against the entire country's military. time of this incident 198, hmmm...at this time 'wu' is hardly stable fighting w/ liu xun and after that still dealing w/ rebellion within. 197, sun ce was still under yuan shu, till yuan shu proclaimed he was emperor, so um how old is 'wu'? I have no idea where you are getting these dates from. The hunting incident was around AD 199, Sun Ce had started conquering Wu in AD 194, so Wu was already 5 years old. After the hunting incident, Ma Teng, Yuan Shao and Yuan Shu would have all concentrated their efforts on taking the capital, leaving Wu alone. By the time the north was settled, Wu would have been stable for a number of years. If you consider that it was AD 196 when Cao Cao started protecting the Emperor and he didn't attack the south until AD 208, that means that Wu had 8 years of stability. I don't think it is much of an assumption to say that Wu, in our what if timeline, would have had just as much time, if not more (5 years of existing stability plus the 8 years it would take to settle the north).
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Post by boogiepopmeup on Mar 16, 2004 18:12:50 GMT -5
AD 197 Lü Bu attacks Liu Bei; Liu Bei takes refuge with Cao Cao. Yuan Shu declares himself Emperor. AD 198 Cao Cao battles Yuan Shao and Zhang Xiu.
well this looks like one or 2 years 2 me for an independent state of wu.
ya and they would have failed just like in reality.
dong zhuo pretty much controlled the entire court, he was pretty much the figure-head of the state, and the lords rebelled against him.
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Post by Morg on Mar 17, 2004 5:41:00 GMT -5
AD 197 Lü Bu attacks Liu Bei; Liu Bei takes refuge with Cao Cao. Yuan Shu declares himself Emperor. Yes and you will notice that this is when Liu Bei joins Cao Cao. If you look at the timeline here: www.kongming.net/novel/chronology/zhugeliang.phpyou'll notice that Liu Bei left Cao Cao in AD 200. So, Liu Bei was with Cao Cao for nearly 3 years. The hunting incident was close to the end of Liu Bei's stay at the capital which would make the year AD 199 or thereabouts. well this looks like one or 2 years 2 me for an independent state of wu. The date in your second quote refers to the date when Sun Ce recieved an edict that is unrelated to him setting off on his own. Remember, when Sun Ce initially set off to conquer Wu, it was with Yuan Shu's blessing. It was only when Sun Ce didn't return that the two's relationship ended. Look at the Zhuge Liang chronology again: www.kongming.net/novel/chronology/zhugeliang.phpYou'll see that in AD 195 Sun Ce conquered Jiangdong. He had set off the year before in order to do that. ya and they would have failed just like in reality. By this arguement, no-one except Jin could have won the three kingdoms no matter what the scenario is. dong zhuo pretty much controlled the entire court, he was pretty much the figure-head of the state, and the lords rebelled against him. Please read this carefully: He Jin controlled Emperor Xian. All of the lords who rebelled later against Dong Zhuo (and every lord in the land) worked for He Jin. While there were those who were not happy with He Jin's armed takeover of the throne, there was no one in the military to stand against him as they all worked for him (the court officials were not controlled by him but what could they do?). When Dong Zhuo took over, that was a different matter entirely. He controlled the court but he had no control over the Han's military and the Han military rebelled against him. Dong Zhuo only had control over his own army, He Jin had control over every single soldier in the country.
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Post by boogiepopmeup on Mar 18, 2004 22:23:41 GMT -5
ummm no he didn't.
ya and if u look at sun ce's bio, he was still served under yuan shu. and regardless how old wu was, there was still unrest up til this point. plus after sun ce dies wu turns to internal developement, so i doubt wu would have attacked at this moment. quote]By this arguement, no-one except Jin could have won the three kingdoms no matter what the scenario is. [/quote] no, by this argument i don't think wu could have taken the north.
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Spade
Fighter
I shall do what ever it takes to protect my love! ?En Garde!
Posts: 69
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Post by Spade on Mar 22, 2004 4:10:10 GMT -5
well what if Lu Bu wasnt killed and what if Dian Wei didnt die at Xu Chang (im not sure if that the place...but im talking about the spot where he dies) and what would happen if Pang Tong wasnt ambushed? and another thing...what would have happened if Sun Jian wasnt killed by a rock?
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