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Post by Iain on Apr 23, 2004 1:20:22 GMT -5
Well we have similar topics but assuming everyone who participates in this thread have read the Romance books by Lou Guanzhong, what character do you find rather annoying in the books? Liu Bei Spends a great deal of his earlier life crying and wondering why he cant get anywhere in life.(He is nearly 50 when he captures Shu.) Cao Cao Wei ruler used to getting his own way in Imperial court and kills anyone who disagrees with him, too lucky for his own good too. Sun Quan Rather headstong ruler of Wu who wanted the Jingzhou provinces no matter the cost. Zhou Yu Evil schemer that plotted to kill Liu Bei while he was Wu's ally and Zhuge Liang because he was 'smarter' than himself. Also known to fake his own death too many times by falling of his horse with blood coming out of his mouth. Zhuge Liang Powerful, Godlike strategist that could really do no wrong in the Romance books. Sima Yi Strategist to Wei that always seemed to be plotting something, was rather foolish as Zhuge Liangs 'straight man' at Wu Zhang, turned into a Zhuge Laing himself later on as he overcame Wei from within. Lu Bu Betrayed his adoptive father twice raided for Dong Zhuo many times, took land from Liu Bei. Basically was a teror to Cao Cao and Liu Be, despised by many others. Yuan Shao The mans an idiot after seeing how many of his advisors he locked up that were giving him good advice and leaveing a drunk in charge of his major supply depot. This general had the biggest army but very poor leadership qualitys. Dong Zhuo (Sir not appearing in this poll, because he'd be getting all the votes!!) He raped, pillaged, murdered, maimed, deposed the Emperor and raided the Han Tombs and generally annoyed everyone near him. What else needs to be said about this tyrant. Well theres the contestants, now hopefully everyone here has their own opinions on why they dislike a certain character in the book, and please feel free to add more choices if you want, I simply picked out a few really that I could think of.
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Post by Sleipner on Apr 23, 2004 7:14:19 GMT -5
I'm normally the type of person who can see the good and bad in all people so it's quite a hard vote for me.
I've voted for Yuan Shao as he showed no leadership what-so-ever. What annoyed me was the fact he was meant to be a great commander and yet he was indecisive and ignorant of the warfare.
Some of the officers get "bad press" in the book. Ok, Lu Bu was a traitor to Ding Yuan but he wasn't all bad. Cao Cao also wasn't as evil as people think. He never ascended to the post of Emperor and was in fact very kind to his officers and considered the common people in his actions.
Others that i would include would be Liu Chan and any general that asked to lead the vanguard and die within the first few bouts of a duel.
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Spade
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I shall do what ever it takes to protect my love! ?En Garde!
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Post by Spade on Apr 23, 2004 10:54:55 GMT -5
I vote Yuan Shao because he thinks only of the Yuan Family nothing else.
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Post by Shuist on Apr 23, 2004 14:25:58 GMT -5
UGH ZHOU YU MUST DIE! He was such a sore loser. He needed to just stop faking his death and die already.
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Post by Reiz on Apr 23, 2004 21:48:22 GMT -5
i vote CAO CAO !!! Cause for what he did to Huo Tuo
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Post by TiRaMisu on Apr 23, 2004 22:18:13 GMT -5
Though Cao cao may be all scheming,has leadership skills and something in him to attract so many subordinates,he's getting my vote. Two main reasons. 1)He tortured this guy so bad his skin all came off and chopped off his fingers! That's the worst thing anyone ever did in ROTK. Good for him to be haunted. 2)That issue about Xu shu's mother. That was just so despicable of him. Cao cao's making use of the close bond between mother and son to his own advantage. All that beats being a stupid leader or anything.
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Post by Iain on Apr 24, 2004 4:39:42 GMT -5
I voted Cao Cao as well, he slew many of his polictical foes took control of the Han emperor and basically terrorised the country for many years under the guise of loyal Han prime minister. How many people did Cao Cao kill that just 'happened' to get in his way, too many to count I think. I also found him to be way too intellegent in the book, why the heck did he need strategists and advisors around him if every time they suggest a good idea, Cao Cao proudly states he had the very same idea in his head. He was way too lucky as well, Lu Bu nearly caught him, Zhang Xiu, Yuan Shao, Ma Chao, Wei Yan....I lost track of how many close scrapes Cao Cao survived really.
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Post by Sleipner on Apr 24, 2004 6:58:06 GMT -5
The book says Cao Cao was thinking the same to show that they felt he had no intelligence - only that he wanted to portray that he knew about strategy (He burned his own war manual because he wanted to have the same view as someone else). By doing this the writer attempted to show that they felt Cao Cao could not come up with any plans himself - plus it also shows the situations when he listened to his advisers.
As for a lot of people Cao Cao had killed - would you leave dangerous people, who wanted you dead, alive to wander the streets? As for Xu Shu's mother - she or Xu Shu were never mistreated, plus he had the bigger picture in mind. With Xu Shu in Liu Bei's army the war would go on longer then needed - Cao Cao always considered the people in his actions and wanted to prevent a long and costly war.
How do these actions compare to Liu Bei? He was supposed to be humane and a man of the people yet he lead them to attack Wu for a insignificant reason. Thus he sent legions of men to their deaths. Plus also in future campaigns, Zhuge Liang would have had the resources to take the north if Yi Ling never happened.
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Post by Shuist on Apr 24, 2004 7:28:23 GMT -5
Liu Bei's attacks on Wu were not bad. They killed Guan Yu, the sworn brother. Duh.
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Post by Chibichan on Apr 24, 2004 16:32:30 GMT -5
Well, Iain KNOWS who I dislike the most from the novel, and that was Zhuge Liang without a doubt! Second is Guan Yu, then Lu Bu, and third... Liu Bei.
I don't need to give out reasons for Lu Bu and Guan Yu, since, well, I hate so called 'unstoppable characters' in any game, show, movie (exception is Sephiroth...). Lu Bu didn't last long, so he really didn';t get on my nerves as much as Guan Yu did. I respect that fact that he IS pretty darn strong, somewhat smart (at LEAST in comparrison to Zhang Fei), and was very instrumental to Shu and its cause. However, what I dislike the most about him is the arrogance he gained from being so 'uberly coooooool and awesoooooome'. AH! He may have become a 'God' after he died, but he was no God in the living. But, what REALLY makes me hate him is the fact that he could be compared to Lu Bu. Both were defeated by strategy, but was Cao Cao considered a coward for defeating Lu Bu? No... just a tricky little bastard that would soon be a threat to the Han Empire. However, when Sun Quan finally got fed of of Shu screwing them over with the Jing Province (really, jsut split the dumb territory in two, that's NOT too hard to do, you ancient chinese morons) and Lu Meng (and Lu Xun, hoot) defeat the so called God of War by strategy, they are referred to as cowards, spineless cowards, when they were doing a smart thing in tactics (come on, if Lu Meng went up to Guan Yu's face and said, 'Let's just fight it out', who do you think would win? I love Meng, but he was no powerhouse like Guan Yu...). Then again, it's because of his victory over Guan Yu is why I like Lu Meng so much (that and him in the game... I find him quite handy when he's not the exact same thing as using Zhang Liao... he's basically the same, just slower).
Enough ranting, I understand Guan Yu's importance in the novel and respect that, but that does not mean I ahve to like him. Blah...
ANd Liu Bei lost my favor because he didn't seem fit to rule an entire nation during a time of turmoil. Perhaps if they DID reach peace, then Liu Bei could have ruled, but in that time and period, he just didn't HAVE it. he was indecisive, cried and tried to kill himself a lot, self-doubted himself, and basically... he just WHINED a whole lot.
And I don't like whiners...
As for characters in the novel that I do like... well, you SHOULD know who, and you SHOULD know why...
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Tenbatsu
Warrior
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Post by Tenbatsu on Apr 24, 2004 18:21:00 GMT -5
I HATE Cao Cao. He has done way too many evil things. He killed an innocent family on "accident" cuz he thought they were trying to kill him while he was sleeping. In fact, they were just getting ready to cut up a pig and fry it. That is who i hate the most.
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Post by Sleipner on Apr 25, 2004 6:39:49 GMT -5
Liu Bei's attacks on Wu were not bad. They killed Guan Yu, the sworn brother. Duh. Exactly, going to war because of a petty reason like killing your sworn brother is not the actions of a leader (he scarificed the lives of many thousands to avenege the deaths of a few) If the book is baised towards Shu then you have to wonder how bad Liu Bei, Zhang Fei and Guan Yu actually were in real history. Guan Yu comes over too arrogant, plus when Wu invaded Jing people joined Wu because Lu Meng treated them with respect and kindness - something that Guan Yu only done to the most powerful generals. Cao Cao's winning this poll at the moment! But i'm yet to hear any good reason why - the book makes a good job of highlighting the bad actions of Cao Cao yet when Sun Ce had Yu Ji killed or Guan Yu slayed the captains at the 5 passes or when Ma Chao killed a loyal officer purely because his father was in the enemy army, are these events not as bad as what Cao Cao done?
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Tenbatsu
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Post by Tenbatsu on Apr 25, 2004 6:48:05 GMT -5
No they aren't. Did you read what I posted Sleipner? Cao Cao has so many wrong things I have lost count.
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Post by Iain on Apr 25, 2004 7:35:18 GMT -5
Cao Cao was the opposite of Liu Bei. Liu Bei believed in morality and loyalty. He was loyal to his benefactors and brothers. Whereas, Cao Cao believed that the "ends justify the means". He was smart enough to eventually realize that he had to treat people fairly in order to get their support and loyalty. But he never trusted people the way Liu Bei did. Ironically, one of the reasons that he died was his suspicion that his doctor was trying to murder him...
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Tenbatsu
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Post by Tenbatsu on Apr 25, 2004 7:41:59 GMT -5
Do not forget that Liu Bei attacked one of his family members to gain control of Shu. Liu Bei could have just asked nicely. Kindness goes a long way......sometimes.
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